A question for Dreamer, if he's still there

A question for Dreamer, if he’s still there.

When Bear challenged me as to why I feel differently about ESTC than about MDB, it made me think about it and I learned from it. (See #61547), and it also provoked a very useful post from tamhas which I learned from as well, and then othalan posted another very useful post, that I learned more from, and others countered him. That’s how it works on this board.

So I’d like to pose a question to you. You like Elastic better than Datadog because it’s at half the price, and you say that will give you a better CAGR, but exactly how WILL you get a better CAGR from:

A company that is growing revenue 30% lower than the other, (58% to 88%) and with revenue growth falling while the other is accelerating
A company that is losing more money each quarter, while the other has arrived at break-even,
A company that is increasing their cash flow losses while the other company is cash flow positive.

You also say that we have no experience with a stock like Datadog with 40x EV/S. But you are using trailing 12-month revenue during a period that the company was growing over 100% so that’s ridiculously out of date for the early quarters.

If you just take the current run rate (revenue last quarter x 4) they are at a current EV/S of 30 and if you look forward for your EV/S, and drop the revenue growth rate from the current 88% all the way down to 75% (although there is no actual sign of slowing, in fact the actual growth rate is rising each quarter), you get a forward EVS of 23. (At that point the then current run rate will give you a current EV/S of 17, at the highest.) And DDOG will have lots more positive cash flow and ESTC will undoubtedly still be negative. So again, where will you get more CAGR from ESTC?

When I sold out of my Shopify last August, it was at 537% of what I had paid for it two years previously. If I had bought it at twice the price it would have been at 268% of what I paid for it. Still, not bad for two years.

Okta is almost a quadruple, at 390% of what I paid for it, a year and ten months ago. It was 440% (well over a quadrple), at the end of August.

Alteryx is a triple, at 340% what I paid for it a year and eleven months ago. It was a quintuple at the end of August (over 500%).

When I sold it, Twilio was ….

Well you get the picture. I would have had a fine CAGR with any of them if I had paid twice as much as I did.

So again, how would you have a better CAGR with a company that is loathe to make a profit, compared with a company that is already on its way and growing much faster.

Saul

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I’m not Dreamer, but I do visit his Where Angels Fear to Tread board and appreciate his insights. Even though I am not him I will post a response.

Well you get the picture. I would have had a fine CAGR with any of them if I had paid twice as much as I did.

These are the results you are famous for, but at the time you purchased those companies you did not know that would be the case. Rather they fit into the criteria you are comfortable with. Apparently you and Dreamer have different criteria.

I guess another way to word the question is “can you quantify what margin of safety you are comfortable with?”

Jeb

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Saul, I want to say you literally have no reason to defend your position. Your results speak for themselves. I am kicking myself for not learning from you when I found this board 7 years ago. I would have been a lot richer.

Still, not too late. I am all in learning to do it myself with the incredible brain trust that is here.

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So I’d like to pose a question to you. You like Elastic better than Datadog because it’s at half the price, and you say that will give you a better CAGR, but exactly how WILL you get a better CAGR from:

A company that is growing revenue 30% lower than the other, (58% to 88%) and with revenue growth falling while the other is accelerating
A company that is losing more money each quarter, while the other has arrived at break-even,
A company that is increasing their cash flow losses while the other company is cash flow positive.

You also say that we have no experience with a stock like Datadog with 40x EV/S. But you are using trailing 12-month revenue during a period that the company was growing over 100% so that’s ridiculously out of date for the early quarters.

If you just take the current run rate (revenue last quarter x 4) they are at a current EV/S of 30 and if you look forward for your EV/S, and drop the revenue growth rate from the current 88% all the way down to 75% (although there is no actual sign of slowing, in fact the actual growth rate is rising each quarter), you get a forward EVS of 23. (At that point the then current run rate will give you a current EV/S of 17, at the highest.) And DDOG will have lots more positive cash flow and ESTC will undoubtedly still be negative. So again, where will you get more CAGR from ESTC?

Hi Saul,

I think the discussion about DDOG has been a useful one (at least for me). But, as an investor, I like to ask the question “how good is DDOG” rather than “is DDOG better than ESTC”. I think what is missing is what Jeb eluded to. How much is DDOG worth, how much would you pay, and how much do you think you can make? After this has been estimated, we can do the same for our other stocks and then decide which is better and how much should I allocate. A few days ago I wrote a lengthy post in which I tried to figure out how much return I could earn from DDOG over a five year period. Here is that post:

https://discussion.fool.com/well-its-now-up-21-today-why-be-in-m…

I made a bunch of assumptions about future growth, FCF margins at scale, share dilution, and the multiple that would be assigned for FCF and FCF growth five years from now. Based on that, my best guess is that I might be able to make a CAGR of 15% per year for a period of 5 years assigning a purchase price today of around $40 per share.

I think what Dreamer and Bear and Jeb and I are wondering is how much money can be made. We are trying to get quantitative to test whether it actually makes sense to own DDOG. Perhaps you are using a gut feeling and intuition to arrive at a decision? The reasons you mentioned are all important but what price is too much (in your own mind) to own DDOG…at what point is it better to reallocate to another stock? Another question that I would ask is in looking at my calculations, do you find anything that you would change to arrive at a higher CAGR than 15% over the next 5 years?

Another question is at what point will DDOG hit a growth wall…the so-called law of big numbers. We had TWLO which was a force of nature clocking >80% growth last year. Growth slowed but more importantly I heard something on the last TWLO earnings called that influenced my decision to exit: management citing that we can’t expect huge growth anymore because TWLO is a $1B run rate company. Basically, they said that their size is now so large that they cannot grow as fast as they did in the past. This is not something that I like to hear when I am invested in them for the growth. At what point will DDOG hit this wall? I don’t know but as an investor with a huge allocation, the TAM which informs future growth potential should be on the radar.

I’d love to hear your thoughts on how long DDOG can grow at >80% and how will they return more than 15% CAGR for the next 5 years. Comparing ESTC doesn’t answer how good DDOG will be. Thanks.

Chris

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losing more money each quarter, … increasing their cash flow losses Sometimes I think we do not pay enough attention to the fact that sooner or later a company has to be cash flow positive and make money to stay in business. Land and expand is fine, but it is a lot easier to sell a product at money losing prices. The pace of innovation and change, the TALC, is ever more rapid, something new and better will come along a lot quicker than it did 30 years ago. This implies that the window for best stock appreciation may be getting narrower.
I know about the Amazon example but there it is easy to see how they could increase cash flow rapidly. It’s not so easy to see with some of Saul’s stocks. So I prefer companies where I can see that at least some hint of profitability , now or in the near future.

Re Saul, he has a big thumbs up from me. He is a great stock picker, and even better at selling. Imagine such a resource being available. For free. Thank you ,Saul.I do appreciate you, and the handful of other good stock pickers on this board . And on one other site. Read them and maybe become the “smart money”.

I do not agree with his forbidding discussion of sector movements (look how much that has cost recently)or even general stock movements, but it is his board. And in fact since there are very few genuine indicators of sector or general market direction, prognostication usually comes down to posting about gut “feelings”, something of little value. So maybe he is right, it keeps the board less cluttered .

Will Saul picks do badly in a Bear? Yes. But Bull markets last longer than Bear markets, and he has made so much money in the former that he can ride out the latter and still be way ahead. That may not be the case for late comers to this tech bull.

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mauser96 can you please elaborate on “Will Saul picks do badly in a Bear? Yes.”
How exactly do you define “badly”?

a) They will decline more than a Non-Saul Pick? If so, where is the problem? They will most likely be faster up again as well, right? Also, if everything goes down, so what?
b) They will go bankrupt?
c) ?

Asking seriously. I am one of the late comers (and young, <35yo so I can just ride out a bear market), and have difficulties to understand your rather rough statement.

Do bad in a bear?

All the stocks I own are still up nicely (not as nicely mind you) since the latest market crash. If I had been concerned about a bear I’d have a nice 1.5% return in a money market.

This bear argument has been around since the last bear market crash ended in 2011. From 2009-2011 it was the system is rigged against us so get out of the market.

Stocks go up, stocks go down. History, however, tells us that extreme volatility is the norm, and that great companies with outstanding CAP and growth, not bought during a bubble, will in the end outperform through bulls and bears. Follow the S curve and identify when the S curve either has a materially reduced slope or never develops as the narrative said it might.

That is implicitly what Saul is doing. It is not “momentum” investing. It is understanding when businesses accelerate (and so the market treats it as such) vs. when they ameliorate (and thus so does the markets mood towards it). In-between there are periods of doubt and despair and periods of yippee! If you can’t stand the despair you will never get to the yippee! Same thing as if you cannot fire someone you cannot hire someone.

Tinker

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I guess another way to word the question is “can you quantify what margin of safety you are comfortable with?”

I am not Saul but that term does not belong on this board, that is a value investors term. The two investing styles are diametrically opposed. Growth investing is top down and you do not get any margin of safety, as Saul has shown in his manifest on the right side of the page, he really doesn’t think that price is something anyone should be thinking about. If you think it is a great stock then it is time to buy.

If you are a value investor then you will be investing from the bottom up and you will be looking for valuations that are much cheaper, guiding yourself with a P/E, P/B and P/S much cheaper then anything found on this board.

People that are looking for a Margin of Safety really shouldn’t be investing the way that Saul invests.

Andy

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Saul has shown in his manifest on the right side of the page, he really doesn’t think that price is something anyone should be thinking about. If you think it is a great stock then it is time to buy.

Andy, I don’t think that is exactly true. There are many successful growth investors on this board (Saul included) who will sell a holding when they think it has gotten too high, and then redeploy that money into an issue that hasn’t experienced similar appreciation.

If those investors never thought about price, what would be the motivation for their sells?

Jeb

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There are many successful growth investors on this board (Saul included) who will sell a holding when they think it has gotten too high

Jeb,
I think there are successful growth investors on this board that do sell when they think a stock has gotten to high. But I have never seen Saul do that since he has started investing in SaaS type stocks. He bought ZM and DataDog when both were highly valued. He sold others when he saw the growth slowing (Shop) or when he thought they were losing customers (TWLO).

Back when he first started this board it was all about Peg, he even came up with a value metric that we all followed. It was called 1YPEG. Back in that time he did think about value and he followed more of a Garp type investing. But then he pivoted to SaaS and since then he really hasn’t thought about a stock being to high because of the Growth and Gross Margins.

I have thought about this a lot Jeb, and over the last 5 years SaaS stocks have been booming, and Growth stocks have been the vogue. This is not normally the case. Usually Value stocks win out over Growth stock. In fact, if you listen to the Value investors you will hear them expecting it to change back to Value investing. Just recently, people on this board were really scared that their stocks were dropping to much. But Saul was calm because he surmised that the growth of these stocks would continue to climb. Eventually these stocks will have their run and at that time I believe Saul will pivot, when value stocks do come back, and go back to a more 1YPEG type investing. But while SaaS stocks are booming, its make Hay while the sun is still shining

Andy

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If those investors never thought about price, what would be the motivation for their sells?

Sorry about that Jeb, I should have answered your question. I am really not interested in following investors on this board, other then Saul. Not because I do not think they are really fine investors, they just haven’t the track record that Saul has through all the recessions. Until you have invested through a recession I do not believe you will know really how you will react. Anyone that went through the 2007-2009 recession and was excited coming out, well that is someone I can respect.

Andy

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Fools:

I find that there is too much focus on terminology here. Here is my port:

ABMD; AMZN; AYX; CRWD; CWBHF; DDOG; DOCU; ESTC; GH; MA; MDB; NVCR; NVTA; OKTA; ROKU; SHOP; SMAR; TDOC; TEAM; TEN; TTD; TVTY; TWLO, ZM, ZS.

I bought each of these positions on the basis of the belief that the market mis-priced the shares in my favor. Call it value investing if you like, but it applies to each one of the stock categories above, i.e. hyper grow tech (SaaS, i.e. “Saul Stocks”), Titan Tech (AMZN, SHOP kinda & TEAM kinda), FinTech (MA), BioTech (NVTA, NVTA, NVCR, GH, TDOC kinda), Special Situations (TEN, TVTY), and Cannabis (CWBHF).

I don’t buy the whole value vs. growth blah, blah…The goal is to buy shares at a price below what we believe the market will offer sometime in the future and sell them when we believe the price of the stock has peaked. If you watch buys and sells of Saul (via his monthly portfolio reports), you can get a pretty good idea about what criteria he uses to achieve impressive results in this endevour.

Here is my advice to folks who come to this board: stick to Saul stocks or offer up new stocks that you believe fit in the parameters that are well defined by Saul on the right side of this board. Do not try to make simple “over-valuation” arguments based on traditional valuation metrics. Don’t continue to try to make the case for stocks that have been discussed and dismissed as outside the criteria. If you read the case for “Why this time is different,” (and related posts written by Saul) and followed to the T by Saul since it was posted, then you have a good set of criteria to follow when evaluating companies that you want to propose for new consideration on this discussion board.

I have brought several deep dives to this board (e.g., GWRE, ZUO, NVTA, WIX) that after good discussions were determined to not fit the criteria, for various reason, for “Saul Stocks” discussed here. I don’t come back to this board and continue to argue for why those stocks are better than those Saul has invested in. I let it go here and if I have more to say about those companies I talk about them on other boards (there is a board in Fooldom for pretty much anything you want to talk about with regards to investing). Hell, I own TEN (Tenneco) a profitable company that was offered up to all you investors for roughly a $600M Market Cap (under $8 per share) in Aug on revenues of roughly $11.7B. Compare that to AYX’s market cap, revenue and earnings! But I don’t talk about that here, because TEN is about as far outside the criteria (Rev growth, margins, anyone!?!) of a Saul stock as any on the market. TEN is seriously way off topic for this board (so don’t even think about asking me about it here). LOL. In other words, this board has a clear purpose and a well articulated set of criteria of what is acceptable to discuss on it. If I brought TEN here to discuss, I would be doing nothing but antagonizing the generous host of this board and all the people who come here to discuss hyper growth stocks that are largely captured in the secular paradigm shift in software from an on-premise/license model to a cloud based/subscription model. Andreessen was right: software is eating the world. (BTW AYX is a top 3 holding for me, TEN a very small position–but I couldn’t resist what Mr. Market offered me… :).

My thoughts on how to keep the peace on this board:

  1. Internalize the most fundamental investment criteria of this board by reading all the docs posted on the right side of this board. Avoid any discussions of stocks that fall outside those criteria.

  2. Discuss current stocks in Saul’s portfolio, or offer up other equities that you feel fall within the well defined investment criteria (see docs on right side panel). Do the work to make a solid, detailed case and be ready to answer tough questions.

  3. Don’t…Don’t ever criticize other points of view…always keep conversations focused on facts and data–in any discussion there is your view and my view, its the facts that should help us find a common understanding. Focus on the facts, be curious about the other’s point of view, ask more questions than you make statements. Try to be more interested than interesting…

  4. Avoid loaded words that come across as an attack. We are all adults on this board. You know what those words are and when you are writing them. If you are feeling agitated as you draft a post, walk away from what you wrote for at least 30 minutes (go outside and get some fresh air!), come back and read it and then decide if you want to put it on the board. Use the “grandma test:” would your grandma be proud of you if she read what you wrote on this board? Hahaha!

  5. If you find yourself in a conversation that is growing increasingly heated about “valuation,” STOP. Re-read the philosophy of this board and re-consider posting your counter point. Outside of the trolls and one liners, this “valuation” discussion/argument/debate line wastes the most space on this board. Recognize when the discussion has played out and transitioned from fact sharing to an attempt to “win” with your point of view. When you get into the “I’m determined to win this discussion mode,” it is definitely time to move on…If you feel you must have the last word, you have definitely entered the “wasting other peoples’ time” space. Please don’t waste other peoples’ time. None of us really care if you get the last word or not…Especially if you are arguing about something that falls outside of the parameters of this board.

  6. Keep an open mind and a sense of gratitude. I know I am a better investor now then I was before this board started. My financial bottom line, as reflected in my investing results has improved as well. If you feel the same way, say it often, and reflect it in the tenor of your posts. If you are unhappy with your results or the types of posts here on this board, find other TMF boards that are more aligned with your style of investing and philosophy. There are many terrific boards in the TMF Universe–NPI, Angels Fear to Tread, Portfolio Management are just a few. (If you are a premium service subscriber there are even more options available to you). Let’s not wear down or burn out the gooses that lay the golden eggs with low ROI E (energy) squabbles on “Saul’s Investment Discussions” Board.

  7. Finally, remember, it takes all types of voices to create great music–to allow creativity and value to emerge. If you doubt this: check this out, as an example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4xjPODksI08

Peace all, Swift…
P.S. I own shares in all stocks mentioned, except ZUO, WIX & GWRE
As Bob Dylan once said: “Don’t follow leaders, watch yer parking meters…”

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If those investors never thought about price, what would be the motivation for their sells?

A change for the worse in the company’s story would be one prime reason for selling, realizing one made a mistake is another. How can one not think about price, but it is a secondary consideration.

A better way of framing the price issue is to first determine if you are looking at the stock from a value or a growth point of view. A value investor would compare the price with his intrinsic value estimate to make a trading decision. A growth investor puts less attention on the elusive intrinsic value that is easy enough to calculate for bonds but is far more difficult to calculate for stocks, specially growth stocks that have more dynamic inputs. In other words, the growth investor pays more attention to the dynamic inputs like growth rates, customer churn, dollar retention rates and other inputs that have no place in simple discounted cash flow calculation.

The growth investor puts more emphasis on the business model than on the elusive intrinsic value. Actually even Buffett thinks price is secondary. If I’m not mistaken he says that it is better to buy a good company at a lousy price than to buy a lousy company at a good price. I’m not sure what the exact quote is.

Denny Schlesinger

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My son came in to visit yesterday afternoon and we all went out in the evening so I’m sorry that I haven’t been here to respond.

Andy is correct. I don’t consider value metrics when I buy. I consider the company and whether I want to be a share holder. I NEVER sell out of a position because the price has gone up. Never! If the rising price has made the position too big I may trim down to a 18% position or whatever, but usually I BUY when the price goes up. For an example Shopify. I initially bought about $27.50. After a couple of months it was up about 70% at $46 or something. While the cautious were selling out and “taking profits” and thinking overvalued, I bought a bunch more. Eventually sold out after a couple of years at $144. So instead of a small profit I made a quintuple. I tried pointing this out when I said you’ll never make a quadruple on a stock if you sell out when you have a 20% gain because you think it’s now too expensive.

Someone spoke about DDOG opening up at $37 so $40 wasn’t much. It hit $40 the first day but after a day or so was at $34 to $28 where it stayed, moving in a range, until earnings. My average price was about $31 which wasn’t very hard to do at all. So the current price is up 31% from where I bought. I added a small amount around $40 AFTER the rise.

I’ve written in my end of the month: Do you think I care, or even remember, if I bought Twilio (for example) at $25.90, $25.70, or $25.50, now that it’s a quadruple and its price is $106.98? Think about that for a moment! The decision that matters as far as making money in the market is “Do I want a position in this company?” and not “Can I buy it 25 cents cheaper?” If you have a stock that you want to buy because you believe it will triple or quadruple, and then you put in a buy order for it 25 cents, or 50 cents, or even a couple of dollars below the market, and hope that it will FALL to your price, you are out of your mind! But that’s just my opinion.

As far a Datadog, I took a position because it is growing at a huge rate, 88%, is up to breakeven net revenue even growing at 88%, it’s cash flow positive, it got to the point it is with a cumulative burn of only $30 million from it’s origin, it can be installed in minutes, people love it, it has no support revenue because it doesn’t need to go out and teach people how to use it, it’s intuitive, as someone stated it spreads virally, it doesn’t keep everything in separate silos but its’ all integrated and can be seen on one screen, it’s building new products that people adopt, it has one of the highest dollar-based retention rates around, etc etc. EV/S just doesn’t even enter my evaluation.

Saul

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Saul,

I was actually thinking Andy’s growth and value dichotomy was a false one. Of course you look for great growth companies, but you still allocate more to the ones you feel have the greatest potential for appreciation. And you have Datadog as a top 3 allocation.

Chris asks some good questions, and I would love to hear your thoughts regarding his DDOG estimates, especially on the point in bold below. Here’s what he said:

I think what Dreamer and Bear and Jeb and I are wondering is how much money can be made. We are trying to get quantitative to test whether it actually makes sense to own DDOG. Perhaps you are using a gut feeling and intuition to arrive at a decision? The reasons you mentioned are all important but what price is too much (in your own mind) to own DDOG…at what point is it better to reallocate to another stock? Another question that I would ask is in looking at my calculations, do you find anything that you would change to arrive at a higher CAGR than 15% over the next 5 years?

Thanks!

Bear

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Not because I do not think they are really fine investors, they just haven’t the track record that Saul has through all the recessions. Until you have invested through a recession I do not believe you will know really how you will react. Anyone that went through the 2007-2009 recession and was excited coming out, well that is someone I can respect.

Back in 2000-02 or 2008-09 Saul was invested in growth but used to pay attention to earnings and p/e as I understand. So, just because he has been successful in past recessions does not mean that SAAS stocks will do well in a recession. Past recessions have show that high growth names with no earnings do poorly in a recession while value stocks do better. Take Ebay. Back in 2000 it had a P/s of 60, had earnings, cash flow, high gross margins. Yet in the 1999-2000 Nasdaq collapse it fell 77% and its P/S dropped to 3. Here is the interesting fact. The stock valuation dropped despite revenue growing at high rates in 2000-03. The market simply soured on high valuations. It took many years before the stock recaptured its past peak level and by that time the p/s had settled down to a much lower level. So, it is quite possible that in a recession a Datadog may put up 30+% rev growth but still see its p/s drop drastically. There is also no guarantee that a recession will be short lived and that DDOG p/s will quickly bounce back to 40. Even a hint of a possible 2020 recession sent our SAAS stocks down earlier this year even as the SP 500 kept hitting ATH. Now, the recession fear has receded (as per popular press) and our stocks seem to be making a slow come back. But I continue to be fully invested in SAAS for 2 reasons - 1. I cannot predict when a recession will truly come; 2. Even if it comes I do not know how long it will last.

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Thanks Andy. I think this thread has had some good information in it.

He sold others when he saw the growth slowing (Shop) or when he thought they were losing customers (TWLO).

Sure he did, and others often do the same thing. I know I may think “OK…P/S of 24…growth rate of 75%…I can go for that.” However when sales slow, there is customer attrition, or the losses widen, we think “I am not going to pay 24 P/S for 40% growth!” And that is a valuation judgement.

When we decide to put our money on another horse, that is a valuation judgement.

I apologize if this has taken us into the weeds of semantics, but that is the way I see it. I won’t post again on this, but thanks all for chiming in.

Jeb

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in looking at my calculations, do you find anything that you would change to arrive at a higher CAGR than 15% (for Datadog) over the next 5 years?

Bear and Chris,

There are all kinds of assumptions included in that which I don’t make, including whether I will still be in it it five years (normally I exit when the story has changed). However if I can make 50% in the first year (already have 31% in a month and a half), and 40% in the second year, and exit half way through the third year (typical pattern for me) at up another 20% compounded, I’ll be very happy (that put’s me at two and a half times what I started with in two and a half years).

I simply don’t even think in the terms that you are asking.

As far as answering Dreamer’s questions, he was asking why would you invest in Datadog when Elastic was at half the evaluation? I answered that of course Elastic was at half the evaluation. It was growing 30% less per year and falling, while DDOG was accelerating. Elastic was losing more money each quarter and had large negative cash flow and growing losses, while DDOG was positive and growing. Of course Datadog was valued twice as high! Why wouldn’t it be. That’s a whole different question I was asking than your valuation question. You guys try to quantify all these things with all kinds of formulas and tables. I just figure that as long as DDOG is a great company, it will remain “overvalued”.

Saul

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but you still allocate more to the ones you feel have the greatest potential for appreciation. And you have Datadog as a top 3 allocation.

Actually that’s not my criteria. It’s not the ones that have the greatest potential for appreciation, but the ones I currently have most confidence in that I have the largest positions in. My three largest now are Alteryx, Datadog and Okta. In other words not the ones which MAY go up the most, but those I’m most confident will do well. (Sometimes I’m wrong and I reduce or get out.)

Saul

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So, it is quite possible that in a recession a Datadog may put up 30+% rev growth but still see its p/s drop drastically.

Recession or no recession, if Datadog’s revenue growth drops to 30% in the next couple of years, the p/s will contract dramatically and, in that situation, would probably not turn out to be a good investment at today’s prices.

On the other hand, I am betting that, even if there is a recession in the next couple of years, DDOG can continue to grow at least 50-60%+/year. It’s hard to imagine that any of our SaaS companies will be impacted as much by a recession as Ebay or retail companies, from a business perspective.

A recession may cause the SaaS companies’ multiples to contract further, but that’s a short term situation as long as the businesses perform and keep growing at a high clip, they’ll find themselves off the voting machine and back on the weighing machine before too long.

-mekong

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