Cloudflare - my issues with it

I first took a 7% position in Cloudflare at $100 in late Feb thinking it’s “cheap” enough and then sold it during the March rally at around $125. I bought it again at $98 in early April, but sold it down to a 1.5% position a few days later at $90 (pre earnings) as I thought more about it. I finally sold it all after earnings at around $68. All in all, I didn’t lose money on Cloudflare but nevertheless I want to kick myself for buying a company that I was never very comfortable with.

I reflected hard on whether that’s the right thing to sell given how badly sold off it already is but ultimately I decided that there is a lot of further downside if my concerns are right.

There are some weaknesses in the Q1 numbers but that’s not the deal breaker. The key reason is its stated “zero profit” strategy . Here it goes.

(1) Weaknesses in Q1 numbers

The revenue for Q1 and Q2 guide are fine but the underlying - and leading - indicators like billings and large ($100K ACV) customer net adds show emerging signs of weakness. As a reminder, the 100K ACV customer group accounts for 1% by number but 58% of revenue and so it is a key driver of future revenue growth; but the nature of SaaS business is such that any weakness won’t show up in the revenue numbers until a few quarters later. Again, I can understand that the macro is challenging and if you and I are feeling fearful, so are companies. It’s not inconceivable that I.T. spend will take a bit of a hit at the margins for a couple of quarters. So I am giving them a pass for that.

Nevertheless, you can see that the net add numbers is now flatlined YoY and declining QoQ since the 21/09 Q.


                             21/03   21/06   21/09   21/02   22/03 
100K ACV customer net adds:   117     143     172     156     121

(2) “Zero Profit” strategy

Now, here’s my key concern. The CEO has been saying consistently that they will manage to a breakeven profitability for years to come . Here are some quotes:

Q1 2022 earnings call

CFO: “And as a reminder, we intend to grow our operating expenses in line with the revenue, staying near or at breakeven and reinvest excess profitability back into the business to address the enormous opportunity in front of us.”

Analyst: “So are you basically sort of managing to kind of a breakeven non-GAAP operating income line, plus or minus a couple of million here, just to maximize the revenue?”

CEO: "So I think that we’ve been very consistent at saying that we are going to hold as close to breakeven on our operating margin as we can … if we showed massively positive earnings per
share, that would mean that we did something wrong because if we can continue to grow at the rates
that we’re guiding toward, there nowhere else we should be putting that money other than back into the
business … And again we are managing towards a breakeven on operating margin.

Q4 2021 earnings call

CEO: "For long as we can, we want our operating margin to hold just about breakeven and right where it’s been for the last two quarters. In other words, we’ve done something wrong if we beat significantly on EPS.

Q3 2021 earnings call

CEO: “We anticipate that we will hover just below or just above breakeven likely for years to come.”

Now, NET at close to a $1 bil run-rate, is where investors expect it to display operating leverage and grow its profitability rapidly (like what DDOG or CRWD had done - go look up their history) but NET’s CEO said there will not be profits for years!

And you can see that from their operating margin guidance: for the first time since its IPO, they guided to a decline in operating margins for the next quarter

 
Op margin guide for next quarter since IPO:

-27% > -22% > -20.7% > -15.0% > -8.1% > -6.5% > -6.5% > -5.4% > -0.3% > 0.5% > -0.7%

This excuse of depressing profitability to grow its revenue is a familiar one and I heard the exact same thing from the CEO of fallen angels like Okta and Twilio. I am not sure whether they cannot or choose not to grow its profitability.

and look, if CRWD or DDOG can grow its revenue by 60% and 80% respectively, and still improve its margins year after year - why is it that NET has to keep its profitability zero for years to come, just to grow 50%+?

Investors can close one eye if you are still early stage (like SentinelOne) but will not forgive you once you hit revenue scale (~$1 bn run-rate) and yet still cannot grow your profit. They will conclude that your unit economics/business model is impaired and will abandon ship faster than you can say good bye.

Well, how low can the stock go?

Okta: 8x EV/NTM revenue (From 25-30x a year ago)
Twilio: 3.6x EV/NTM revenue (from 20-25x a year ago)

In both cases, they grew their revenue past $1bn but profitability stays at roughly zero (using the same reasoning as NET’s CEO).

Cloudflare is now at 20x EV/NTM revenue (from 80x a year ago).

So is 20x a floor to NET’s stock price?

In the current environment, low EV/revenue cannot provide a floor to your stock price if you are breakeven or loss making (for companies whose revenue has scaled). Investors are shifting to PE or P/FCF multiples for revenue-scaled companies and if the denominator is zero or negative, they can’t value it and EV/revenue becomes quickly irrelevant.

And this is actually how it should be. As someone who runs a small business in my day job, I know that I can’t pay my investors with revenue. I need to pay suppliers, workers, creditors and taxes first - finally I pay my investors with whatever is left. Investors stand last in line for any money that the company generates.

As a hypothetical thought exercise, if a company grows its business from $100 mil to $10 billion in revenue, but the unit economics sucks so badly that it cannot turn a profit in perpetuity, then the stock price is worth close to zero (barring some value for liquidation of its net assets).

It’s only in the 2020/21 madness that revenue becomes a proxy for profits or free cash flow. Its rightful place is only as a valuation measure for early stage sub-$1bn companies.

Ultimately, people should ask themselves whether they want to invest in a company that will not make any profit for years even when its revenue has scaled to multiple billions. What does this actually say about its unit economics and competitive moat?

CatsUnited

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Hi Cats,

I agree that a company generating 1 Bn in revenue and still not showing decent FCF is frustrating. I understand management’s reasoning that they may want to avoid a tax leakage if they need the funds for further infrastructure growth expenditure - it makes sense even though the current markets rewards jam today and doesn’t care for jam tomorrow. I guess the question therefore is ‘How much of the expenditure is purely deliberate and / or growth investment?’

If it is truly deliberate and out of choice, I also wonder how management at the likes of OKTA TWLO NET respond to shareholder pressure to report more s/holder friendly results at this point? The team morale would be affected by the -ve wealth affect too

I think it gets worse before it gets better but I am also irritated by the holy and altruistic stance by management teams who should be primarily responsive to owners. Last week I read of a public British beer co (brew dog) that unilaterally distributed all the year’s profits to its staff as a noble gesture

NET bagholder

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"If it is truly deliberate and out of choice, I also wonder how management at the likes of OKTA TWLO NET respond to shareholder pressure to report more s/holder friendly results at this point? The team morale would be affected by the -ve wealth affect too

I went to look at the history of several successful large cap software companies (Salesforce, Servicenow, Microsoft, Adobe, Oracle, etc.) with a market cap of above $100 bil.

When their revenue were at $1 bn, their operating margin also hits escape velocity and started to improve rapidly; and investors reward them for it even as their revenue growth rate slows down due to size.

It’s the “revenue-growth-at-all-costs” and “profits-be-damned” companies like Okta and Twilio (and now Cloudflare) where their market cap shriveled like a prune even as their revenue grows.

Cats

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Cloudflare is attempting to become the fourth hyperscaler; the fourth public cloud. Why would we want them to be paying taxes when the same dollar reinvested would yield a ~50% ROI?

AWS has a ~35% operating margin—and improving.

Let’s say that Cloudflare gets $1B is revenue in 2022—which is table stakes at this point.

If Cloudflare continues on the path they’re taking for five more years, and maintains a very durable rate of growth, say 48% in ‘23, 46% in ‘24, down to 40% ‘27.

That would be $6.2B in revenue in ‘27. If you apply an AWS-like margin profile, that’s $2.2B in EBIT. Throw whatever multiple you want on that (maybe the 29x that MSFT still has after the carnage), and that might be a triple in stock price from here.

The downside is that Cloudflare doesn’t execute to plan; but that downside exists everywhere. The upside is that we look even a bit further into the future; could they be at $5B ($150B mcap) of EBIT in 2030 (35%/30%/25% growth in ‘28-‘30)?

The problem is that in a market like this, nobody is thinking about next year, let alone five years or more down the line. When you are worried about buying a home or paying for college, or getting sticker shock at the grocery store and gas pump, it’s rational to become risk-averse. So, the above scenario—or even one remotely close to it—cannot be priced in until macro sentiment shifts.

Now, you may be saying, what if Cloudflare NEVER seeks to be profitable—even four-five years from now when they are at a $5B+ run rate. That, I would say, is pretty unlikely and I’m not sure there’s a precedent in the software industry for a company with 80% gross margins and $5B+ Revenue that refuses still to turn a profit.

Eric

64 Likes

Eric,

Where do you get that 50% ROI - are you using revenue growth? ROI is the annualized return (profits) that a company gets from its investments, with future profits worth less than present profits. It’s not revenue. Its ROI for the next few years (by the CEO’s admission) is 0% (since profit will be around zero), not 50%.

Also, 2027 EBIT margin of 35% is extremely unlikely. If it holds its margins at zero from now to 2025 (0 profits “for years to come” per the CEO’s consistent messaging), then you are expecting a 17 pts increase in margin a year between 2025 and 2027. That has never happened before in the history of software.

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CatsUnited,
It’s actually closer to 80% ROI, I was being conservative at 50%.

And no, im not using revenue growth. Jamin Ball has this great metric called Gross margin adjusted CAC payback, which is a measurement of how long a dollar of S&M investment takes to come back in gross margin-adjusted recurring revenue. Cloudflare is 15 months—which is to say that $1 of incremental S&M investment comes back to the firm, adjusted for cost of revenue, every 15 months, or 80 cents per year.

See here: https://cloudedjudgement.substack.com/p/a-look-back-at-q4-21…

To your other point; I obviously don’t expect a 0% op margin in 2026 to pivot to 35% op margin in 2027. I’m illustrating for effect. But does it really matter? If NET instead begins pivoting to profit in 2026 and has 40% op margins in 2030 (2% per quarter op margin expansion) then we arrive at the same result so long as the market has some appetite for risk.

Believe me, I realize that right now every non-cataclysmic prediction is viewed as polyannish. But NET is no story stock. They are effectively executing in a gigantic TAM with no slowdown for the last five years, and I’m happy to give management some years to take that vision to fruition.

Eric

16 Likes

I calculate those numbers also and a CAC payback period of 15 (equivalent to a magic number of 0.8x) for gross profit is a number that is just a “passing grade” for SaaS - it’s not a good number. By the way, it’s in the same neighborhood as Twilio and JFrog.

As an aside, some of the numbers in Jamin’s chart do not look right, like Snowflake with a CAC period of 19: it should really be 10 - I think it’s because he uses only subscription revenue and subscription gross margin which I don’t agree - I would use total). Crowdstrike also does not look right, probably for the same reason.

I would caution people that if they want to use 2030 numbers which is so far away - they better use a super high hurdle rate to account for what can happen between now and then.

3 Likes

Great catch from the transcript and I agree the “we will operate at a loss or break even for years to come” model is now out of favor and the market will severely punish that approach.

Cloud flare will need to show growing FCF and profitability once they hit a certain threshold (call it a billion in revenues for sake of argument).

Heck even Uber, the poster child for “we will lose money forever since the opportunity is so great!” has pivoted to cost savings and profits due to investor sentiment:

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/05/09/uber-to-cut-down-on-costs-tr…

"Heck even Uber, the poster child for “we will lose money forever since the opportunity is so great!” has pivoted to cost savings and profits due to investor sentiment:

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/05/09/uber-to-cut-down-on-costs-tr…

You know I’d wanted to email Matthew Prince (NET CEO) and ask him to reconsider his zero profit strategy; but heck, I decided to sell the stock instead. Maybe those of us who feel the same should all write to him so he gets the message.

Hi Eric, I had a few questions on your post:

and maintains a very durable rate of growth, say 48% in ‘23, 46% in ‘24, down to 40% ‘27.

How likely is it for their slowdown to be a tiny, annual step-function slowdown of 2% per year? I don’t think we’ve ever seen something like that in tech growth history. If this is your ‘base case,’ I suggest it’s fairly unlikely.

If you apply an AWS-like margin profile,

Why would the 4th place competitor get the margin of the #1 provider? Even AWS might not have the current AWS margin as competition intensifies vs Azure and GCP. If there’s one thing that’s been proven over and over again it’s that Bezos is plenty happy to crush your margins to gain/keep clients. That’s not a game that NET can play, is it?

Throw whatever multiple you want on that (maybe the 29x that MSFT still has after the carnage
I mean maybe, but MSFT has a massive Office 365 division that is steady as anything in the markets, in addition to their cloud, and other divisions that give investors comfort that MSFT will continue to grow EPS.

I doubt the NET multiple will be like MSFT’s. [maybe higher… but likely lower as they mature].

The downside is that Cloudflare doesn’t execute to plan; but that downside exists everywhere

Well, the difference is a slowdown from 50% to 40% to 30% is massively different [i.e. worse!] than one dropping from 12% to 10 to 8%. You can run through a couple different growth models and see for yourself. One of the reasons for the huge selloff in this space is firms that were supposed to grow at 80-100% have dropped to 50-60% or less and going lower. Makes a huge difference in the future value of the Firm.

The problem is that in a market like this, nobody is thinking about next year, let alone five years or more

This is 100% wrong if talking about Institutional investors - the people that move markets - rather than retail which doesn’t. NET didn’t drop from $90bn to $22bn because some retail arrivistes got nervous.

They are, in fact, thinking 3-5 years down the road on high-growth no-profit tech companies. That’s the only way you can logically evaluate them, not based on this Q, or temporary macro fears, as you correctly point out.

best,

Naj, long MSFT, S, ADBE, GOOG, AMZN, et al.

No shorts/puts on stocks.

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