RUSSIA ON THE RUN INVADERS PUSHED BACK TO BORDER

RUSSIA ON THE RUN
INVADERS PUSHED BACK TO BORDER
‘GREATEST COUNTEROFFENSIVE SINCE WWII’

Ukraine reclaims more territory, reports capturing many POWs

KHARKIV, Ukraine (AP) — Ukrainian troops expanded their territorial gains Monday by pushing all the way to the country’s northeastern border in places and claimed to have captured many Russian soldiers as part of the lightning advance that forced Moscow to make a hasty retreat.

A spokesman for Ukrainian military intelligence said Russian troops were surrendering en masse as “they understand the hopelessness of their situation.” A Ukrainian presidential adviser said there were so many POWs that the country was running out of space to accommodate them.

Blue-and-yellow Ukrainian flags fluttered over newly liberated towns in the wide swath of reclaimed land. The Ukrainian military said it had freed more than 20 settlements in 24 hours. In recent days, Kyiv’s forces have captured territory at least twice the size of greater London, according to the British Defense Ministry.

https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-kyiv-kharkiv-a691a…

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Amid Ukraine’s startling gains, liberated villages describe Russian troops dropping rifles and fleeing

ZALIZNYCHNE, Ukraine — In the end, the Russians fled any way they could on Friday, on stolen bicycles, disguised as locals. Hours after Ukrainian soldiers poured into the area, hundreds of Russian soldiers encamped in this village were gone, many after their units abandoned them, leaving behind stunned residents to face the ruins of 28 weeks of occupation.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/amid-ukraine-s-startlin…

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The war is not going to end soon and both sides are loosing an unknown number (but likely large) number of soldiers. It has become a contest of logistics where the West is pouring stuff into Ukraine and Russia is trying to replace its stock from Korea, China and through transhippers in Turkey.

Russia is practicing a scorched earth policy which means that towns taken back by Ukraine have to somehow recover from their devastation. In addition, Russia has made it obvious that each time Ukraine strikes at a location on the Russian side of the border (including in Crimea), Russia will indiscriminately blow up residential buildings in cities outside of the war zone.

That said, every Russian tank destroyed by Ukraine is one less facing NATO and the EU.

Jeff

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Jeff,

In the right hand column, Ukraine has 900k reserve troops who will fight like hell.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armed_Forces_of_Ukraine

The reality is the Russians have more of all the arms.

The more important reality is the Ukrainians are far better armed by the west.

Google result to ground this discussion. The west has outspent Russia on modern arms for Ukraine. This means the Putin on a tight budget is spending about $54 billion. The US alone has matched that.

Russia spent 1.7 trillion roubles ($26.4 billion) on defense between January and April, almost half the 3.5 trillion roubles, or 2.6% of GDP, budgeted for all of 2022.May 18, 2022

If Putin prints significantly more money which is just around the corner, the entire Russian economy will go into a hyperinflation great depression.

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Ben Hodges predicted this. He was the commanding General of US in Europe, and has been one of the key strategists on NATO, Europe, and Russia. Worth a listen

Amanpour does the short punchy interview on Ukraine (much of which Hodges predicted shortly after Russia invaded)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9SmmsApGw48

TimesRadio does a longer and deeper interview, and in it near the end he touches on the possible disintegration of the multí-national and multi-racial Russian Federation
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKT40CPjrqw

I expect he is one of the White House’s key advisors. He has the key chops both in the field and academically and, oh hey, he endorsed Biden for Prez in 2020, and Biden’s polcies have largely followed lines that Hodges laid out.

david fb
(and, I have a retired Captain friend who was at West Point with Hodges and thinks very very very highly of him.)

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Ukraine reclaims more territory, reports capturing many POWs

I’m kind of curious if a bunch of those POWs will attempt to decline opportunities to go back to Russia…

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https://finance.yahoo.com/news/uk-economy-stages-feeble-rebo…

This article by the Telegraph states the Kremlin is now running at a deficit because NG has been cut off to most of the EU.

Further NG is falling off its August highs in the EU. Europe is making alternative plans including cutting usage.

There are two things happening here, one the Europeans will only insist on an end to the Russian regime and two the Russian economy will go into a hyperinflation.

and in it near the end he touches on the possible disintegration of the multí-national and multi-racial Russian Federation

A Ukrainian military victory over Russia would certainly embolden the Federation’s client states to break free. The Chechens seem quite upset with Putin already.

Thanks for the great links!

The Captain

…In addition, Russia has made it obvious that each time Ukraine strikes at a location on the Russian side of the border (including in Crimea), Russia will indiscriminately blow-up residential buildings in cities outside of the war zone.

Which is precisely what they have been doing since THEY started this war.

Essentially, “I can shoot at your territory (having previously invaded your country), but don’t you dare shoot at my territory…including the territory I took from you.”

If we allow Putin to dictate how one can defend themselves against naked Russian aggression, then we are fools.

Cheers!
Murph

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The Kremlin’s war council on Monday briefed President Vladimir Putin, Russia’s “supreme commander in chief,” about the dramatic events taking place in Ukraine over the last day to include reports that forces loyal to Kyiv on two fronts had repelled Russian forces and retaken key territory.

What Ukraine and its Western backers broadly touted as a “retreat” was referred to only as a “regrouping” by Russian officials describing the meeting with top military aides in an attempt to downplay the significance of the latest battlefield reports – though tacitly acknowledging Ukrainian troops were indeed gaining territory.

https://www.usnews.com/news/world-report/articles/2022-09-12…

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Murph,

This has not been an “all-out” war from the Russian standpoint, but it has been from the Ukrainian one. Russia has been limited by internal politics, more than external sanctions, because the original story was not conducive to supporting a “national” no-holds-barred war. It is politically challenging for Putin to admit that this “small” military action has evolved into a major embarrassment for the Russian military and a continually expanding sinkhole of manpower and resources is beginning to rise to the surface of the national consciousness (Putin has consciously been recruiting troops from Western and Southern Russia, rather than from the middle class of European Russia which has hidden the size of the effort).

Just for “fun”, let’s ignore the EU, UK and US from the standpoint of being combatants and let’s look at the objectives and pressures on the two fighting parties.

One of them (Russia) has tactical nuclear weapons which they have not used because, while they might be expedient, they would elicited dramatic global blowback (but if confined to Ukrainian territory, likely no direct Western retaliation). They have also announced that if Russia felt an “existential” threat it would be free to use them. It is the definition of that word (by Russia) which is the limiting factor in the war - don’t forget, the Russian border is only a few miles from the front line, but Ukraine has not conducted troop action across the border (that we know of).

If Ukraine (assuming they had the ability) were to poke a couple of holes in the Kremlin or St. Pete, Russia might interpret that as one of those threats (or reclass this military action as a war and start a draft to replace lost soldiers - not as bad an outcome, but not a positive occurrence).

I don’t think Russia will feel threatened as long as Ukraine keeps to their side of the border, but the problem is that this war is about the status of Crimea, more than any other factor. Ukraine has legitimate claims to the area, but Russia has annexed it and has retaliated “spectacularly” every time Ukraine has done something there. It is my feeling that, should Ukraine eject Russia from its “mainland” and then attempt to take Crimea back, considering the importance to Russia of Sevastopol, that might open Pandora’s box.

I am not opposed to teaching Putin a lessen, nor am I opposed to Ukraine wearing down Russia’s conventional military abilities and I’m even more in favor of their retrieving their territory.

I am, however a realist and I suspect that Ukraine has lost Crimea “forever” (borders are apparently never forever in Europe) because none of its allies will support its responding “in-kind” to tactical nuclear weapons if Russia feels its borders have been crossed and thee weapons are used in a battlefield context (not against civilian targets).

When this mess is over, Russia will retain Crimea. Ukraine’s infrastructure will be in shambles and the country’s finances drained and its population displaced and many of its men killed or maimed. Russia will have lost a load of expendable Asian cannon fodder (from the standpoint of its European leadership), a substantial amount of its conventional weaponry and a great deal of money (but in return will continue to occupy Crimea). The West will have reduced its conventional weapon stockpiles, but not to a dangerous level, Europe will have suffered through a political disruption caused by a “cold winter” combined with Russian disinformation campaigns pumping up the Right. The US will have spent a good deal of money to supply arms and assistance, but because of its own chaotic political situation, there is no clear advantage to either political party.

The net result will have been the trashing of an entire country and a disruption of the world economic order just to achieve what amounts to a status quo of the situation before the war. From Russia’s standpoint, the war has hardened any chance of Ukraine becoming an ally in the near future.

Jeff

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(but if confined to Ukrainian territory, likely no direct Western retaliation).

Jeff,

We do not know this because the use of a nuclear weapon beyond WW II has not happened.

But lets assume the west must murder Putin in an entirely targeted manner.

The use of a nuclear weapon could not stand.

Lets also assume if we need to we can reach him if even by remote control small objects. He has to breath.

To assume Putin just goes on with business and there will be diplomacy? Not for one minute.

When this mess is over, Russia will retain Crimea.

There may be even more ramifications than your depressing, but logical, arguments. Perhaps Russia will manage to hold on to the Crimea - perhaps that is a greater than, or equal to, possibility.

One question that could be teased out more is that should Russia (Putin) feel threatened enough to use tactical nukes and the West did not respond in kind, what bars would there be for the Ukrainians at that point? Would Russia’s borders be safe then? Why not bring the war to Belgorod, or Voronezh, or even Moscow? Would there be any holds left on small team guerrilla warfare (sabotage, ambushes, bombings, etc.) being conducted in Russia?

Pete

Just for “fun”, let’s ignore the EU, UK and US from the standpoint of being combatants and let’s look at the objectives and pressures on the two fighting parties.

Jeff,

Why? The fact is that Ukraine would be gone if NATO/the West had not stepped in.

As to Russia’s not using “all-out war” tactics on Ukraine…they didn’t because they underestimated NATO’s response and over-estimated their own military capabilities. So, the “bully” threatens to go the nuclear…tactically and strategically.

It is time that the Western leaders channel their inner JFK regarding Putin’s nuclear and other threats. If the West backs down and let’s Putin dictate war terms because of his nuclear threats…even tactical ones… that makes a nuclear threat for other countries/NATO, USA, etc. MORE possible in the future. If our nuclear deterrent is no longer seen by the dictators of the world as a counter-balance to theirs because they think we lack willpower to use them, then our choices will eventually boil down to two:

1.Gradually surrender territory and concessions to those who make nuclear threats.

2.Convince them that the use of ANY nuke an act of war against NATO and the west (back channels only approach; not media, etc.)

The world has avoided nuclear annulation via “MAD” (mutually assured destruction)-sad, but that is where we were/are. The VERY worst thing the West can do is allow nuclear threats to produce gains for those threatening their use.

Assuming the Western leaders can convince Russia that MAD is still in effect, and we all avoid the use of nukes, then our choices appear to be these:

1.Find a “soft landing” for Putin that allows him to save face WITHOUT giving up anything of principle or real importance to the West. (He is allowed to keep Crimea or part of it, but he MUST lose something/give back other parts of Ukraine for keeping Crimea?) This is a tough one to structure and get done due to Putin’s nature and the hole he is still digging for himself. Putin is losing this war, and should not have a net gain from it.

2.Continue as is, with increasing pressure, until Russia decides to rid itself of Putin, or Putin declares “victory” and leaves Ukraine.

I personally favor combining both #2’s.

Murph

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While Ukrainians are kicking the hell out of the Orcs and sending them back to their hidey holes across the border, former Chechen tough guy, Ramzan Kadyrov, retired early a week ago.

https://discussion.fool.com/kadyrov-is-retiring-35160754.aspx

Former Putin ally in his 30s falls off his boat yesterday . . .

https://discussion.fool.com/they-fall-out-of-windows-they-fall-o…

Putin is running low on lackeys.

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Russia will lose the Crimea. Making assumptions about a war without the US and NATO for Russia to keep Crimea is not on.

The reason is this war has been going on for eight years already. If Russia keeps Crimea this war will continue on. Because the territorial split wont be clear.

The result of an end to this war will be a complete Ukraine and her entrance ushered into NATO and the EU for future trade and protection.

If Russia uses a tactical nuclear weapon the only difference is the assured murder by the west of Putin himself.

It is not about a ttt (sorry fool correct) for tat of people being nuked in Kviv v the public in Moscow being attacked or nuked. That is not realistic.

More importantly the only incentive for dictators not to use nuclear weapons is for them to understand they MUST be murdered very quickly.

Ukrainians and Russians are Slavs. We can not bomb Moscow or help Ukraine bomb Moscow. That will turn on us for all sorts of reason. The old saying, “I fight with my brother till my cousin comes along”.

Killing Putin would satisfy all parties.

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Putin is running low on lackeys.

Despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary, there is, unfortunately, no shortage of idiots who think they can ride the autocratic tiger and that they won’t get eaten when they dismount.

AW

I don’t think Russia will feel threatened as long as Ukraine keeps to their side of the border, but the problem is that this war is about the status of Crimea, more than any other factor. Ukraine has legitimate claims to the area, but Russia has annexed it and has retaliated “spectacularly” every time Ukraine has done something there. It is my feeling that, should Ukraine eject Russia from its “mainland” and then attempt to take Crimea back, considering the importance to Russia of Sevastopol, that might open Pandora’s box.

========================================

Jeff,

Looks like Russians are very afraid and threatened in Crimea.

Ukraine: Russian intelligence officers and military commanders flee Crimea, southern Ukraine
In the Russian-occupied regions of the Crimea and southern Ukraine, Russian proxies, intelligence officers and military commanders have begun to evacuate and “urgently resettle their families” back into Russian territory, the defence intelligence of Ukraine’s military of defence said.

Defence intelligence officials noted that Russian nationals were “secretly trying to sell their homes and to urgently evacuate their relatives from the peninsula”.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2022/sep/13/russia-uk…

Jaak

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Putin is running low on lackeys.

I’m not so sure. His lackeys seem to be power mostly because of Putin, not so much the other way around. For example, Kadyrov is Chechen. Russia fought two bloody wars against Chechnya. So why are the Chechens helping out? Kadyrov (actually his father) is a good old fashioned side-switcher. Kadyrov started off as a separatist leader, but screwed over his fellow separatists by cutting a deal with Putin to install him as president.

The current Kadyrov needs Putin to stay in power otherwise he’d be destroyed by rival factions. But in exchange, Putin gets the use of Kadyrov’s army. Kadyrov has a permanent base in the President Hotel adjacent to the Kremlin. Recall the 1991 Soviet coup d’état attempt which used the military to try to seize the government. Putin has a answer for that: a non-Russian army standing by that is loyal to him, and not Russia.

The oligarchs seem powerful, but Putin can imprison them like Navalny (who was almost assassinated as well), or force them to sell their assets like Tinkov.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/05/01/world/europe/oligarch-put…

And of course, there is always defenestration which seems to be growing in popularity.

Back in Soviet times, the president had to answer on some level to the Politburo. Khrushchev for example was ousted by the Politburo when he went too far off the rails. Putin answers to nobody. There is hope of course the current debacle will lead to Putin’s removal, but for now I believe Putin is safe.

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skye,

My money says safe is the wrong word for not leaving office gracefully.

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