I wasn’t thinking of social controls, I was just stating a fact. Actually the pay teachers get is a social control.
Sounds great let’s implement them going forward.
Andy
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Actually I think you are the one that thinks it is all or nothing. There is no justice when you saddle other people with the debt that someone else acquired. There is a reason that other people paid their debt off and scrimped and saved to do it. You want someone else to acquire debt that they did not agree to. It is completely lost on you that you could correct this problem by funding a charity to do exactly what you are trying to accomplish. But that just doesn’t fit your agenda of trying to force everyone to do exactly what you want to do.
And that is another thing we agree on and something I already stated. We can correct that all going forward.
Andy
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It’s been explained again and again. It is different in many regards, but especially in regards to fairness. You compared it to unemployment insurance, so let’s use that one for comparison.
Joe and Joan each earn $50,000 a year, Joe is a spender, he has a big SUV and a heft car payment each month, he goes out to eat often, and has zero savings, even has a credit card balance at 16.9% interest. Joan, on the other hand is a saver, she is frugal, and has built up her savings, and even has some investments,. They both get laid off. Joe and Joan collect exactly the amount of unemployment insurance, for exactly the same period of time.
Joe and Joan also have school loans. Joe has made the minimum payments, has been late a few times, and took full advantage of 3 years of suspended payments. He has a balance of $11.341 remaining. Joan, on the other hand, due to her frugality, has been paying extra each month, and continued paying her loans down through the 3 years of covid, and next month will reach a zero balance. If this program eventually happens, Joe will get $10k, Joan will get zero. How is that even remotely fair or equitable?
There are many other ways it is different. For example, Sam and Samantha. Sam kept the school debt, and used his savings as a downpayment to buy a house. His house increased in value from $200k to $250k. Samantha instead paid off the school debt, and has no house and no increase in value. Sam is going to get “a check” for $10k, Samantha will get nothing. Again, unfair and inequitable.
Furthermore, what do people learn from this? They clearly learn that any debt that is government backed should be the last thing they ever pay. Why? Because someday it may be randomly forgiven regardless of personal circumstances.
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Look how do I say this…all teachers seem to think they are underpaid.
I have never met a cop that does not think he is underpaid.
I rarely meet people that think their pay is fair. Is it a fact that teachers are underpaid?
I have heard teachers claim they’d be executives in major corporations if they did not take up teaching. Life does not work that way at all. It does not make anyone happy thinking something that is not reality based. Teaching does not equate to executive jobs.
I was raised by a dad who took half the pay of his fellow doctors for about two thirds of his career. Medicine shifted and he ended up shifting for the rest of his career. Dad was considered the very best. Part of that was not figuring out how the pay should be higher. It was not a goal of his.
I hear people in work talk about being aggravated. Last one I dealt with age 32 I stood there as he explained how aggravating something was. I waited and waited until he realized nothing in that moment between us had anything at all to do with him making up crapola about his endless need to be aggravated. It is a dumb way of life to try endlessly to find your aggravations. He seems to be enjoying his job more now. Wonder why? He felt like an idiot explaining make believe aggravations.
Teacher’s unions keep teacher pay close to as high as it will get in a given period of time. Without a union the pay would be a good bit lower. Private schools often pay less.
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We need to rewrite the capital loss laws for you.
We live in a socialized country. But it is only socialized for the very rich.
Corporations write off losses all the time. First they borrow the money very often. When that happens the rest of us make up the differences.
You act as if you live in your own vacuum and the IRS fully agrees to that. Hardly true at all.
Bond yields include an adjustment or a tally that includes the risk factor. That means an inflation factor, a risk factor and the coupon rate make up the yield in the marketplace. This affects all economic activity.
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Exactly Leap. I think that should have taught you something but instead you have become the 32 year old. Always ranting and aggravated about dumb stuff. Being aggravated about make believe aggravations. That is exactly how I look at how you are trying to explain why I should pay for your school loans.
Andy
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No that is a figment of your imagination. Lets be truthful about this. It is you that is trying to rewrite the capital loss laws. Just because people like me are standing in your way you make up fairy tales to explain your rationale. It is amusing to see you twist in the wind trying to explain yourself.
Right only socialized for the very rich and that is why we have Medicare and Social Security. That is completely for the rich.
We already addressed this but since you have a hard time at comprehension I will try to help you understand. Hawkin stated that all loans should be allowed to be disbursed in bankruptcy, but because you are not reading the whole string but jumping around and trying to create more drama, you didn’t realize I agreed with that.
This was a discussion, nothing more than that. Something that reasonable adults could talk about.
My dog goes outside every morning and relieves himself. Now how does any of that have any bearing on this conversation.
Andy
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Andy,
I will only say one thing then, you are mischaracterizing all sorts of things in this thread. Not just everyone else’s positions but the entirety of the topic, how taxes are collected and more importantly why, how econ works and why and finally what your wallet has to do with their debt.
Your wallet like all our wallets has very little to do with anything and everything to do with everything a paradox. Sad to say you do not know you make more money if society does better. The moment society could to better you are against it as your cost. That has never been reality. Your paycheck taxes are not your cost. They in the absolute sense of it are your profit.
Without a strong federal government and central bank most of us are merely dirt farmers. Bureaucracies, the bad naming starts, empower individuals far beyond their own individual merit. Even if you do not work in an institutionalized setting your clients will be. To be paid and make what you do takes a modern economy. To think it costs you is so wrong. Your tax bill is your profit more than the rest of your check. And there are a myriad of ways that adds up. Ever get to work without a paved road?
Paving the road was not just for your lonesome car. If it was there would be zero roads.
My aggravation is about a very real subject. People refusing to take care of Americans and make the country wealthy. To face people against our nation getting wealthy is as irritating as hell. You think taking our country and trashing it while waving the flag is money saving for someone’s wallet? Nothing at all works that way and we have $32 tr in debt to show for it. If I do not force my way I get forced by people who are clueless. No clueless is not riding over me. I am not at work right now.
James and Janet each run a chemical manufacturing company. James is a spender on himself, cutting the business expenses to the bone so he can take a larger salary. Jane, on the other hand, runs her business responsibly, spending adequately in the business to keep the plant and it’s environs clean. But the chemical business turns bad and they both go out of business. James leaves behind a superfund site, while Jane’s plant is able to be sold and put to use for another business.
So that’s fair? We all pay to clean up after James, but Jane cleaned up after herself.
Strange you chose to only look at one of the three scenarios laid out.
–Peter
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Good point. You might die young. Perhaps you should not pay those taxes either.
Let me ask you something if cheap works why does the federal government have $32 tr in debt?
Let me answer that because we have not optimized the US economy from 1981 to 2020.
If you do not know what optimizing the US economy is take a public finance class. The rest of what you are saying is just the bitter I did not go to college I wont pay for anyone else going to college. Which is where I came in.
There are far too many people on this “economics” board who have never studied any econ. Public finance is the heart of it. Go study it. Coming in here with totally unresearched and unstudied ideas of how you should not pay taxes is ridiculous.
If the American middle class does exceptionally well your relative tax burden is reduced. Those college grads getting up the ladder will pay more in taxes as they get richer.
If you are just playing for nonsense sounding stuff for this years tax season in April 2024 then you have no business mind at all. Play for at least one decade or go home.
That has nothing to do with paying someone else’s loans Leap. You are conflating one issue with a myriad of issues. By trying to go back and fix one problem, you are making people pay twice for the same problem. You think you are being fair doing that because you are spreading it across the whole population, while part of that population already paid for that bill.
That is not what I think at all. You have built in your mind that your thinking is the only right thinking. That is exactly what has caused the biggest problem in this country. Nobody can sit down and discuss an issue to solve it, they all think they are the ones with the correct answer, so they push their “right” answer on everybody else without seeing if there is a better way to solve the issue. No matter what way we solve this issue there is always going to be somebody that is screwed. Now that you are irritated realize this, I am on the other side of this issue Leap and I am not mad, nor am I irritated. But I have been heard.
Andy
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LOL Leap you just assumed I was against Social Security and Medicare. That couldn’t be further from the truth.
Leap you really haven’t read, nor listened to anything I have said. I went to six years of college, I love learning and did the basics in many courses before getting an AA in communications. My wife went to college and received a Masters in Education. You know the degree you have so little respect for. But we paid for both of our educations. So if you can’t even listen to people in a discussion, and comprehend what they are saying, what is the point of talking to you at all? This all started because you thought your relatives were mad. Now you think I am bitter. I am starting to see a pattern here. Anyone that disagrees with you is either mad or bitter, it seems that I was correct in my first analysis of the situation. You are projecting your feelings onto other people.
Andy
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(I have had to delete most of this post because someone complained. For the life of me I do not know why. The only offensive point was the other party has not studied the topic. In the US we can have the equivalency of being in a classroom without being in a classroom and no one can say otherwise?)
That is completely false. That is totally your imagination because you have never studied public finance. We have not been able to reach you but you have an entirely empty glass belief system. There is a hole in the glass and the tide is going out. The riptide has you in its grips.
The government should go after Jame’s assets in court to recover the cost of the cleanup. He defaulted on his obligation solely to enrich himself.
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Most people spend some of their life feeling cheated in some way by life’s misfortunes.
There is that argument how daddy failed you. Then there are the discussions of actual econ where the nation’s younger folks get wealthier. Those are two of the same thing. The folks who feel screwed v making sure people are not screwed.
Where does it end? When we care about the wealth of our nation.
We took one for team capitalism over the last 40 years or this would never have been an issue. We were heavily subsidizing education after WW II.
Only to bring in supply side economics did we impoverish our nation. It was our turn not to be in command economically. But my did we hear how in command we were. A complete unaffordable lie.
Did I tell you how poor people caused $32 tr in federal debt? Were you lied to and you had no clue? No poor people did not rack up the debt.
We have to optimize our economy. That is win/win for all of us.
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And if his assets are insufficient? Does the government - which is all of us - leave the mess only partially cleaned?
—Peter
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No. That is what the super fund should be for, when the guilty parties are not found or do not have the assets. IMHO the guilty parties should face consequences for the mess they created.
Isn’t that what California did to the utility companies for the recent wildfires? Didn’t they hold them responsible?
It seems we are getting off topic, but I’m for holding people/companies responsible for their actions. Take responsibility for your decisions.
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Yep. I agree. When they don’t have the assets, we all pick up the tab.
Back to student loans. What do we do when a borrower is simply never going to be able to repay their student loans? In general, they can’t be discharged in bankruptcy. So do we leave these folks to struggle for the rest of their lives, to be hounded by debt collectors in perpetuity? Why not bring back debtors prisons?
—Peter
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Here is the plan that they want to implement which seems reasonable to me, they are setting up rules to guide it one which is you have to pay for 20 years and then get the rest paid off.
Student loan forgiveness isn't dead yet. Biden's SAVE plan will help : NPR.
Now let me ask you this Peter. Do you think this needs to go through congress and put on the Presidents desk to be signed or do you think the President, on his own, should be allowed to implement what he feels is necessary?
Andy
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You keep mischaracterizing every single part of this. I have listened six times over, you keep repeating that one thing.
In the meantime you did not take a public finance class. Last I knew that was the topic. How your wallet ended up in their no one will ever know.
Lets drop your wallet. Lets pretend you do not pick it up and run.
Instead how in your opinion do we as a nation optimize our economy. You know the actual topic on an economics board. Not your bleeding wallet over and over again.