A reminder for those worried about valuation

Gary, from our board, kindly sent me this link to an article from The Investor’s Field Guide (which I had never heard of) with a little article on EV/S

investorfieldguide.com/a-history-of-the-price-to-sales-ratio…

The article pointed out that :

Higher margin businesses tend to trade at higher price-to-sales multiples. Which brings us to two important quirks about the p/sales ratio: margins and leverage.

First, If you sort all large stocks into five buckets based on their price-to-sales, and then calculate the total net margin for each bucket (total income/ total sales), you see a clear trend: higher price-to-sales = higher average margins, and lower price-to-sales = lower average margins.

Saul: Well, of course, that’s what I’ve been saying)

A second quirk is that companies with more debt (high debt/equity ratios) tend to trade a cheaper multiples of sales, whereas those with little or no debt tend to look more expensive (as their sales are being generated with less borrowed capital).

Saul: Our SaaS stocks have no net debt because of low capital expenses, and thus look more expensive.

Saul

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Our SaaS stocks have no net debt because of low capital expenses, and thus look more expensive.

Few random observations:

  • SaaS companies don’t have debt because they are able to get cheap financing through equity.
  • While a business like (WMT, HD, easy examples) invest in their stores, it shows up as assets in balance sheet, on the other hand the investments made by SaaS (in SGA) pass through the income statement and the only place you see it is on the accumulated NOL (Net operating Losses); This sort of messes up the traditional ROE calculations, or various GAAP based valuations; On the other hand an investment in a store may be salvaged partially whereas the investment on the SGA has a very finite life and if it is not converted into sales within a period, basically it is lost (also the reason they are treated as operating expense and not as “assets”); hence the SaaS stocks react big on sales execution issues.
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I know of no better example of the benefits of the business model, and scalability of these SaaS companies compared to a low margin/high asset requirement model, than comparing your favorite SaaS company to Carvana. Carvana pays $439 in interest per car sold. Versus $95 in interest per car sold last year.

Debt, and the interest expense that comes with it, is a nonissue for these SaaS companies because they just don’t have to spend so much on assets needed to grow their revenues, relative to their gross profit. Here in this case the asset (that does not show on the balance sheet) would be that SG&A and R&D.

This isn’t just financial statement trickery. There truly is greater leverage in software.

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This isn’t just financial statement trickery. There truly is greater leverage in software.

Just to be clear, I am not saying there is any financial statement trickery involved. Leverage is not unique to SaaS, you have it with software, and in other tech companies like Google, etc.

Again, R&D can be a long-term asset, and SGA is bit tricky, only if you convert it into a paid customer. If not, that SGA is lost, it is not an “asset”, you will not be able to leverage today’s SGA spend 2 or 3 years later.

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you will not be able to leverage today’s SGA spend 2 or 3 years later.

My Citi credit card is 29 years old and my web hosting account is over 15 years old. David Skok analyses the “S” in SGA in terms of “Lifetime Value” (LTV)

What’s your TRUE customer lifetime value (LTV)? – DCF provides the answer

Overview

The old formula that everyone uses for customer lifetime value (LTV)) –average gross profit per customer divided by churn – ceases to work properly when you have very long customer lifetimes and negative churn. LTV can become infinite, which clearly doesn’t reflect reality. This post offers a new way to calculate LTV based on discounted cash flow analysis that takes into account the risks associated with revenue that is far off in the future, and the time value of money. The resulting LTV can help companies better understand and manage their future revenue streams and it much more accurately reflects what an investor would pay for that future flow of cash.

https://www.forentrepreneurs.com/ltv/

And not all R&D is successful. Edsel? 737 MAX? How many we never hear about?

Denny Schlesinger

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Saul,
I fully understand and agree with your analysis.

Yet, there’s a wrinkle. Not every trade is driven by logic and analysis. Estimates place algorithmic trades at 70% of the total. I don’t know what logic resides inside those algorithms, in fact it’s a closely guarded secret. But I can’t help but to think that they are largely driven by technical indicators rather than fundamentals. With a falling stock price, once a certain trip point is reached the sell pressure for that stock cascades in an effort to head off further losses. This happens with total ignorance of revenue growth, margins, retention, etc. At least, that’s my assumption.

In addition, as you noted, If the conventional company is trading at an enterprise value of let’s say, four times its revenue, isn’t our SaaS company worth four times THAT! Or six times that, … or who knows, ten times that? For those investors who recognize the same factors you have documented, there remains the or who knows. In other words, valuation is not irrelevant, it’s just awfully hard to assess. I think this played a part in the recent crumbling of Zscaler’s stock price. I think that the reaction to guidance has been over compensation to a report that was actually not that bad, but that’s probably due to the algorithms firing off after the trip point was reached.

The recovery in stock price is always slower than the decay. It’s much easier to define a trip point on the way down than on the way up.

I’m not taking issue with your analysis. As I said I understand and agree with it, but I’m trying to understand how things actually play out in the market. If you follow financial articles published at SA and other places (I know you do), valuation is almost always a part of the discussion. And the analysis you provided is absent more often than not. I assume members of this board know that the quality of analysis found at SA varies widely. I’ve read a large number of articles that build arguments on information that is factually wrong. But, we seem to be living in a time when facts are less important than assertions.

What to make of all this with respect to investing decisions? I wish I had a good answer to that question. Saul is telling us to calm down because the valuation of this new class of business can’t be bound by traditional measures. It truly is different. While I believe that that assessment is true, I also don’t think that it is widely recognized.

Further, I think a recession in the relative near term is inevitable at this point. I can’t fathom what would turn the economy around quickly enough to forestall one and IMO there’s little doubt that we are headed in that direction. I had investments during the dot com debacle, but really they were more like speculative bets based on not much of anything factually substantive. I was also invested during the 2008 meltdown. My investments at the time were based on the advice provided primarily by subscriptions to investment news letters. In retrospect, the quality of the advice was pretty low. I just bemoaned the loss of equity, but did little in response to it.

I think valuation is important if for no other reason because it is important to other investors, probably the majority of other investors. And in another respect it’s irrelevant to trades driven by technical indicators. So far, I’ve not sold everything and used the proceeds to buy gold. But the situation is unnerving. Being right is not of great consolation in light of the erosion in my portfolio.

It’s a conundrum and at present I’m stuck with indecision. Quite uncomfortable.

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The recovery in stock price is always slower than the decay.


My gains by Jan/Feb of 2019, off of Dec 24 2018 lows, says otherwise.

My opinion only, but the proliferation of info, access and speed of access to that info, for machine-trading/algos, means the rotations and pivots can be much faster than in previous years.

My expectation is some of these hardest-hit will pop back up to a certain level fairly quickly. Not necessarily back to ATH in a heartbeat, but many/most can go up 15% from here and still be well off highs. Given these stocks can move up 10% in a day on no news, that 15% gain can come in a hurry.

No idea if this is bottom of rotation, but acquisition costs provide me with a floor, so I am wading in with remainder of cash soon.

Dreamer

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But the situation is unnerving…Quite uncomfortable.

You’re not alone, brittlerock, I’m sure many are unnerved/uncomfortable, myself included, as I posted about a couple days ago.

I think a recession in the relative near term is inevitable at this point. I can’t fathom what would turn the economy around quickly enough to forestall one and IMO there’s little doubt that we are headed in that direction.

I do disagree with the bolded sections above. I agree with “recession is inevitable”, as that’s always the case, it’s just a matter of when, I just can’t say that it will be “in the relative near term” (although I guess it depends on your definition of that). Nobody can predict these things, so I don’t try.

All that said, it looks like the other shoe has dropped on our high growth stocks today as many are giving up the slight gains they made midweek after Monday’s rout.

Throughout the week I brought my cash position down from 18% to 15% with adds to a good many of my holdings. Not buying more today, but will wait to see what Monday brings as those seem like they can be bad days. If next week remains this low for our stocks (or even goes down more), I’ll probably bring my cash position from 15% down to 10-12%.

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A little excerpt from Beth Kindig’s blog/newsletter (I’m a free subscriber, but you do need to sign up). This is cut from a much longer article and is just a piece of the conclusion:

https://beth.technology/how-to-pick-long-term-stock-winners-….

"How to evaluate cloud software
The evidence doesn’t point to a rational reason for the sell-offs. Some stocks are priced high, but knowing which ones deserve to be, is going to be more important than ever.

• The larger the market, the safer the investment… Does the product solve a pain and reduce overhead for businesses? These will outlast the more niche markets and products that are considered a convenience. To illustrate, if you are providing software for office communications that replaces office telecom equipment, not only is your product a necessity but it will be the solution to high telecom bills during a time when costs are being cut. There are numerous (such) examples.

Ignore earnings estimates

• We hear a lot about competitive moats, yet high switching costs is a protective buffer that serves two purposes: It locks in subscription revenue and staves off competitors… Look for companies that have high switching costs.

My prediction is this may be one of the last cycles when tech is considered less safe than value stocks. As the market will find out (the hard way), cloud software is actually very safe. It is insulated from trade wars and overseas manufacturing issues. It reduces costs for enterprises, which is ideal for a recession.

Lastly, cloud software is at the beginning of a rapid growth cycle compared to its counterparts in tech — such as mobile, e-commerce and advertising — which are reaching saturation, are finding themselves in the cross hairs of anti-trust, and are susceptible to consumer spending changes.

The best companies in the category of “cloud software” will continue to post rapid growth regardless of economic conditions, and the investors who run from this sector will suffer bigger losses from missed opportunities than investors who know their winners."

Sensible woman,

Saul

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While it is true that this is a new breed of businesses, they still are subject to the laws of competition. When gold was first discovered in California, the first couple of guys got rich. Then everyone else came kept coming, until it became so saturated that most people started to lose money. Because these SaaS companies are so successful, it’s just an invitation for more competitors to enter and enter FAST. Look at how fast the gold rush came and went. Look at how many internet companies sprung up out of nowhere and so quickly. The same thing happened in the crypto market before the crash, with the number of altcoins that sprung up suddenly. It does not take long for competitors to come.

The second is TA. In brief, I’ve had my share of “conviction” companies. I generally buy them near highs, like IBD. Once they start tanking, the technical damage is so great that the stock just cannot get up anymore, at least within a reasonable time frame. ZS and CRWD, in my view, have sustained so much technical damage that it would be very hard to rise for months, at the very least. In many ways, if a stock doesn’t bounce back right away, such as TTD a few months back, the path of least resistance is down. I’ve lost a lot of money with that lesson!

Finally, I compare companies with ones that are in the same industry to estimate the ceiling. For instance, the market cap of PANW is about 20B. It’s a leader and it’s about as much as the market is willing to value a cybersecurity business. CRWD was something like 20B and ZS was like 15B. PANW isn’t growing as fast, but it’s more established.

For what it’s worth, ZS and CRWD are one of my larger holdings, so I’ve had a bad week.

DoesMIWork

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A little excerpt from Beth Kindig’s blog/newsletter…

Wow, thanks as usual, Saul! That piece is quite the endorsement for the stocks discussed here, and for holding and even adding as able at these lower prices. Yes, it feels good to hear someone else saying these companies really are different, even if it rings of confirmation bias.

Sounds like she should (or could already) be a welcome member of your board’s community! :rofl:

Wow, thanks as usual, Saul! … Yes, it feels good to hear someone else saying these companies really are different, even if it rings of confirmation bias.

Hi Foodles,
Yes someone else who is a very valued contributor to the board wrote the same thing to me off-board:

Thanks for posting that article. I was actually already aware of most of the points she made, but somehow having an outside authority enumerate them is reassuring.

And I make three. It was reassuring for me as well, to get the confirmation from someone who is apparently a really competent professional in the field, saying the same things we’ve been saying, and wording it so clearly. It was especially reassuring for me to hear the same thing from Bert and from Beth on the same day.

Best,

Saul

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It does not take long for competitors to come.

There is nothing about SaaS that makes it easier or faster to come up with a top flight complex product. With the gold rush, a small amount of money would provide one with the standard equipment and then one merely had to show up and find a place that was not already occupied. One cannot similarly show up with a new document DB, search engine, security product, or whatever.

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My prediction is this may be one of the last cycles when tech is considered less safe than value stocks. As the market will find out (the hard way), cloud software is actually very safe. It is insulated from trade wars and overseas manufacturing issues. It reduces costs for enterprises, which is ideal for a recession.

Lastly, cloud software is at the beginning of a rapid growth cycle compared to its counterparts in tech — such as mobile, e-commerce and advertising — which are reaching saturation, are finding themselves in the cross hairs of anti-trust, and are susceptible to consumer spending changes.

Hi Saul,

This is good stuff, and she echo’s what Bert has been saying all along - if/when a recession ever hits, these companies will be the least likely to be cut by enterprises, due to the fantastic ROI they get from these SAAS companies, as they become mission critical their day to day operations.

During a recession, would Uber cut Elastic’s search services? Good grief, could you imagine? They would send you drivers from PA from your trip from Manhattan to JFK Airport.

You could can envision scenarios for each of our SAAS companies and come to the conclusion that they are very valuable to the customers they serve. Also the average investor probably forgets that these companies dont worry about manufacturing costs, tarrifs, and so forth. The last month or so has felt eerily similar to last year around this time as well.

I’ll go ahead and subscribe to her letter as well… I like sensible folk. :slight_smile: Plus it’s also comforting to get some reassurance that we arent all nuts.

Best,
Matt

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I know that this board does not include technical analysis, but IBD has basically issued a sell report on most of the stocks discussed on this board. Most stocks have fallen below their 50 day and 200 day Moving average on significant weekly volume. This normally means at least a few quarters before these stocks return to their glory, and of course this depends on their performance exceeding expectations. A few of these stocks might be large winners, but most will never regain their highs.

Good luck and happy investing.

John

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Thanks Denny,

Your post 59735 may have been the single most important post I’ve read since reading Saul’s knowledge base and in my seriously humble opinion may be a reason if not the reason for the recent recalibration to the value of the Saas business model.
Is that over dramatic? I hope to hear why from more intelligent people than I, which are in over abundance on this board for sure.

Jason

Sorry,
Denny’s post I referred to is above at 59700.

Thanks

these companies will be the least likely to be cut by enterprises that is not the whole story. Existing software would not be cut but many companies would not buy more. They will hoard cash when they are fearful, especially if they have a lot of debt. And debt is the one thing that kills companies in recessions. Valuations of Saul NPI type stocks even at today’s cut prices are dependent on growth. Which will slow. And buying power of many institutions will be cut by redemptions as well as by fear and the lemming like behavior of institutional investors.

In any case we are buying stocks not companies and stock prices of all of these companies will likely fall in a recession. They are not “safe” .

cloud software is at the beginning of a rapid growth cycle compared to its counterparts in tech that I do agree with. But it’s hard at this early stage to be sure of the ultimate winners

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There is nothing about SaaS that makes it easier or faster to come up with a top flight complex product. With the gold rush, a small amount of money would provide one with the standard equipment and then one merely had to show up and find a place that was not already occupied. One cannot similarly show up with a new document DB, search engine, security product, or whatever.

I wish that were true. It is worse, an incumbent has technical debt and is built on older technology. They have pressure to be cashflow positive. A newcomer can build a stack for next to nothing, have billions in VC money at their disposal, have an established market to attack, have predictable margins to set to steal business, and have much more tolerance from their investors for cash burn.

There is a new distributed database (as I’ve mentioned, document dbs just a subset of distributed data stores, as is Elastic) popping up all the time. Riak, notably, has been bankrupted by newer entrants. There are literally dozens of highly credible security endpoint startups in funding series B-C. Security probably has the toughest road because of lack of proof of ML models and the talent is so tight, but some of those startups are toying with hybrid models.

It’s frighteningly easy to disrupt an entrenched PaaS and those 90% margins are big fat targets.

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A few of these stocks might be large winners, but most will never regain their highs.

How do you know? And if you know, tell us which ones. That would be most helpful, specially if you explain why each one of them will be a bust going forward.

Saying but most will never regain their highs with no specifics backing it is worthless because it is not actionable.

Denny Schlesinger

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