# Can't the US Aeronautical Industry Make Good Products? **URL:** \ **Category:** Macro Economic Trends and Risks\ **Created:** [May 3, 2023, 1:00pm UTC](https://discussion.fool.com/t/cant-the-us-aeronautical-industry-make-good-products/91955 "2023-05-03T13:00:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![tjscott0](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/motleyfoolfree/user_avatar/discussion.fool.com/tjscott0/32/1083_2.png) [@tjscott0](https://discussion.fool.com/u/tjscott0)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2023, 1:00pm UTC](https://discussion.fool.com/t/cant-the-us-aeronautical-industry-make-good-products/91955/1 "2023-05-03T13:00:14Z")
First Boeing & 737 Max. Now Pratt and Whitney engines. > **[India's Go First airline files for bankruptcy, blames Pratt & Whitney...](https://finance.yahoo.com/news/indias-first-airline-files-bankruptcy-101608770.html)** > > BENGALURU (Reuters) -Cash-strapped Indian airline Go First filed for bankruptcy on Tuesday, blaming "faulty" Pratt & Whitney engines for the grounding of about half its fleet. The move marks the first major airline collapse in India since Jet... India Go uses largely Airbus aircraft but apparently they are powered by P&W engines. [https://www.planespotters.net/airline/IndiGo](https://www.planespotters.net/airline/IndiGo) P&W also have problems with their engine for F-35. > **[Pratt & Whitney Finds Fix for F-35 Engine Issue - FLYING Magazine](https://www.flyingmag.com/pratt-whitney-resumes-deliveries-of-f-35-engines/)** > > Pratt & Whitney said it has developed a solution for its F135 engines that have experienced problems with harmonic resonance vibrations. > **[F-35 Engine Maker Braces For Sustainment Cost Spike - Breaking Defense](https://breakingdefense.com/2021/10/f-35-engine-maker-braces-for-sustainment-cost-spike/)** > > Scheduled maintenance for the F-35's engine in the mid-2020s will drive up the price of engine sustainment, just as the Pentagon expects cost reduction goals come to fruition. ---
**Author:** ![Leap1](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/motleyfoolfree/user_avatar/discussion.fool.com/leap1/32/72176_2.png) [@Leap1](https://discussion.fool.com/u/Leap1)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2023, 1:30pm UTC](https://discussion.fool.com/t/cant-the-us-aeronautical-industry-make-good-products/91955/2 "2023-05-03T13:30:43Z")
As for India’s Go or China’s airline corporations…the US and European airline companies overall have run at a loss for decades. Airline companies are not workable over the longer run. Never have been. Blame who you want that fact wont change. I’d rather Pratt admit and fix problems than be shamed over bad corporate management in India. ---
**Author:** ![steve203](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/motleyfoolfree/user_avatar/discussion.fool.com/steve203/32/3302_2.png) [@steve203](https://discussion.fool.com/u/steve203)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2023, 1:35pm UTC](https://discussion.fool.com/t/cant-the-us-aeronautical-industry-make-good-products/91955/3 "2023-05-03T13:35:40Z")
> [@Leap1](#): > > As for India’s Go or China’s airline corporations…the US and European airline companies overall have run at a loss for decades. In the last wave of bankruptcies, it was pointed out US airlines, net, since the beginning of commercial air transport, have lost money. That being said, I suspect that the Indian airline honchos, just like Shiny honchos, always maintain they are brilliant, they were ruined by someone else. Steve ---
**Author:** ![tjscott0](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/motleyfoolfree/user_avatar/discussion.fool.com/tjscott0/32/1083_2.png) [@tjscott0](https://discussion.fool.com/u/tjscott0)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2023, 7:34pm UTC](https://discussion.fool.com/t/cant-the-us-aeronautical-industry-make-good-products/91955/4 "2023-05-03T19:34:57Z")
Having 50% of your airline fleet out for engine problems is EXCESSIVE!. It appears to me a poor design rather than poor airline management. That is not to say airline business is not a tough business. Uncle Warren lost his shirt when he invested in an airline around 1980. I think it was US Air. But sometimes the lesson does not take. He loaded up on airlines in 2016 and sold them for a loss in 2020.{1} Commercial airlines have a required maintenance schedule. > **[The Different Types of Aviation Maintenance Checks](https://www.naa.edu/types-of-aviation-maintenance-checks/)** > > Get used to the maintenance work you will be performing in your career! Recognize what a maintenance check is and what that can entail! {1} [How Warren Buffett's airline stocks have performed since Berkshire Hathaway sold them](https://finance.yahoo.com/news/how-warren-buffetts-airline-stocks-have-performed-since-berkshire-hathaway-sold-them-134849843.html) _“I am Warren and I am an aeroholic.” But the spectacular returns for the industry over the last year are casting a dark cloud on Berkshire Hathaway’s decision [to dump all of its airline holdings](https://finance.yahoo.com/news/warren-buffett-exits-airline-stocks-aal-ual-dal-luv-shares-fall-112121378.htmlhttps://finance.yahoo.com/news/warren-buffett-exits-airline-stocks-aal-ual-dal-luv-shares-fall-112121378.html) in May 2020 as prices were bottoming._ _ **“If a capitalist had been present at Kitty Hawk back in the early 1900s, he should have shot Orville Wright. He would have saved his progeny money. But seriously, the airline business has been extraordinary. It has eaten up capital over the past century like almost no other business because people seem to keep coming back to it and putting fresh money in. You’ve got huge fixed costs, you’ve got strong labor unions and you’ve got commodity pricing. That is not a great recipe for success.”** _ ---
**Author:** ![steve203](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/motleyfoolfree/user_avatar/discussion.fool.com/steve203/32/3302_2.png) [@steve203](https://discussion.fool.com/u/steve203)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2023, 8:06pm UTC](https://discussion.fool.com/t/cant-the-us-aeronautical-industry-make-good-products/91955/5 "2023-05-03T20:06:07Z")
> [@tjscott0](#): > > Having 50% of your airline fleet out for engine problems is EXCESSIVE!. This is India, not the US or EU. How stringent are their maintenance regs? Does the airline maintain an adequate inventory of spares, or cut corners by not ordering parts until they absolutely have to, so planes are down waiting for the parts to show up? Even the once revered Southwest has been caught cheating on maintenance, because it juices the bottom line, over the short term. Steve ---
**Author:** ![MarkR](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/motleyfoolfree/user_avatar/discussion.fool.com/markr/32/2011_2.png) [@MarkR](https://discussion.fool.com/u/MarkR)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2023, 8:10pm UTC](https://discussion.fool.com/t/cant-the-us-aeronautical-industry-make-good-products/91955/6 "2023-05-03T20:10:32Z")
> [@tjscott0](#): > > P&W engines Did other airlines that use those P&W engines have half their fleet grounded? ---
**Author:** ![tjscott0](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/motleyfoolfree/user_avatar/discussion.fool.com/tjscott0/32/1083_2.png) [@tjscott0](https://discussion.fool.com/u/tjscott0)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2023, 8:23pm UTC](https://discussion.fool.com/t/cant-the-us-aeronautical-industry-make-good-products/91955/7 "2023-05-03T20:23:33Z")
> [@MarkR](#): > > Did other airlines that use those P&W engines have half their fleet grounded? Likely not. But there is a problem with P&W. > **[Airbus says engine maker Pratt facing problems with jet support](https://kelo.com/2023/05/03/airbus-says-engine-maker-pratt-facing-problems-with-jet-support/)** > > PARIS (Reuters) - The head of planemaker Airbus said on Wednesday U.S. engine maker Pratt & Whitney has been struggling to support its fleet of passen... _The head of planemaker Airbus said on Wednesday U.S. engine maker Pratt & Whitney has been struggling to support its fleet of passenger jets with enough spare parts and engines._ _Raytheon Technologies unit Pratt & Whitney did not immediately respond to a request for comment._ > **[Pratt Ramps Up Overhaul Capacity Amid Engine-Reliability Struggles | Aviation...](https://aviationweek.com/air-transport/aircraft-propulsion/pratt-ramps-overhaul-capacity-amid-engine-reliability-struggles)** > > While both PW1000G and CFM Leap customers are seeing issues, the problems are far more widespread in the Pratt fleet. _Aviation Week Network’s Fleet Discovery showed a global fleet of 2,976 Airbus A220- and A320neo-family aircraft in service as of April 25. Of these, 11% were listed as either stored or being flown infrequently—once per week or less. While engine-reliability issues are not to blame for all of the inactivity, it is playing a large role, particularly in the harsh-environment regions._ _Pratt has a 43% share of the A320neo-family fleet, with CFM Leap holding the balance. But 70% of the low-activity aircraft are powered by PW1000s, Fleet Discovery shows._ _Indian ULCC Go First Airlines has 29 of its 50 Pratt-powered A320neos on the ground_. _Florida-based ULCC Spirit Airlines has been dealing with a moving target of unavailable Pratt-powered A320neos. Executives said recently that they are planning for disruptions for the next [7-10 months](https://aviationweek.com/air-transport/airlines-lessors/spirit-airlines-could-see-prolonged-challenges-pratt-engines)._ _“[We] are running as fast as we can to continue to insert upgrades into the fleet during shop visits,” Calio said, adding that Pratt is “only about 50% of the way through the fleet” with the latest so-called “block D” improvements that target combustors._ _Pratt is also phasing the next-generation PW1000G, the Advantage, into production, integrating lessons learned from the current [PW1000G fleet](https://aviationweek.com/aerospace/aircraft-propulsion/first-production-standard-pw1100g-advantage-rolls-toward-flight-tests)._ _ **“We’re operating in some very harsh environments,” said Raytheon Chairman and CEO Greg Hayes. “We probably didn’t spend enough time testing for those harsh environments, specifically places like India.** _ Or did they do any testing? Shareholder value uber alles!!! ---
**Author:** ![steve203](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/motleyfoolfree/user_avatar/discussion.fool.com/steve203/32/3302_2.png) [@steve203](https://discussion.fool.com/u/steve203)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2023, 8:42pm UTC](https://discussion.fool.com/t/cant-the-us-aeronautical-industry-make-good-products/91955/8 "2023-05-03T20:42:41Z")
> [@tjscott0](#): > > Or did they do any testing? > Shareholder value uber alles!!! Zero would probably qualify as less than “enough”, so the “JC” is not lying if they, in fact, didn’t do any real world testing. Meanwhile, I am having a billing issue with the health system my Doc works for. The company is trying to put the bite on me for over $200, for a screening that Medicare pays 100% for. This sort of thing was the first thing I wondered about when this health system merged with one on the other side of the state. How much are they going to take out of their patients to make the merger more profitable (both health systems are, supposedly, not-for-profit) Steve ---
**Author:** ![FCorelli](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/motleyfoolfree/user_avatar/discussion.fool.com/fcorelli/32/47614_2.png) [@FCorelli](https://discussion.fool.com/u/FCorelli)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2023, 8:43pm UTC](https://discussion.fool.com/t/cant-the-us-aeronautical-industry-make-good-products/91955/9 "2023-05-03T20:43:28Z")
There’s a movie called Chain Lightening with Humphrey Bogart as a test pilot. Raymond Massey plays a Howard Hughes-like defense contractor whose latest wonder plane… doesn’t work. He is against telling the Air Force about this set-back. His chief engineer is arguing with him about it and says: "_What do you care if they waste a billion dollars worth of appropriations!?"_ Raymond Massey says: _“That’s their problem!”_ ---
**Author:** ![jerryab2](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/motleyfoolfree/user_avatar/discussion.fool.com/jerryab2/32/3274_2.png) [@jerryab2](https://discussion.fool.com/u/jerryab2)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2023, 10:28pm UTC](https://discussion.fool.com/t/cant-the-us-aeronautical-industry-make-good-products/91955/10 "2023-05-03T22:28:19Z")
> [@steve203](#): > > The company is trying to put the bite on me for over $200, for a screening that Medicare pays 100% for. Use their postage-paid envelope to return their invoice with the words “100% PAID by Medicare”. Keep a copy for your records… ---
**Author:** ![steve203](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/motleyfoolfree/user_avatar/discussion.fool.com/steve203/32/3302_2.png) [@steve203](https://discussion.fool.com/u/steve203)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2023, 12:31am UTC](https://discussion.fool.com/t/cant-the-us-aeronautical-industry-make-good-products/91955/11 "2023-05-04T00:31:11Z")
> [@jerryab2](#): > > Use their postage-paid envelope to return their invoice with the words “100% PAID by Medicare”. Keep a copy for your records… Their bill envelopes are not postage paid…that would hurt profits at this not-for-profit. When they first billed me, on April 14th, I took it to one of the cashiers at the local clinic. She insisted what they were charging me was for the annual Medicare deductible, even though the Medicare information I was waving at her said the screening was no charge to patients. I showed the bill to my Doc. He said “don’t pay it”. Took my paperwork to their person in charge of billing, Tiffany. Tiffany told me she agreed, they had billed it to Medicare wrong and would rebill it with the correct codes. I had her put that in writing. I followed up with Tiffany on April 26th, as their web site was still showing the balance due. She said it had been rebilled and was in process at Medicare. I sent the following message through the health system’s message system: _I spoke with Tiffany at the Canton office regarding the billing for this test over a week ago. She agreed that the billing to Medicare was incorrect, and will be rebilled, using the correct coding, as this screening is no charge to Medicare patients._ - - _I followed up with Tiffany yesterday. She said the rebilling was in process._ - - _Why has this balance due not been removed from my account?_ Their message system said to allow 48 hours for a reply. That was five business days ago. No reply. Steve ---
**Author:** ![Leap1](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/motleyfoolfree/user_avatar/discussion.fool.com/leap1/32/72176_2.png) [@Leap1](https://discussion.fool.com/u/Leap1)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2023, 12:31am UTC](https://discussion.fool.com/t/cant-the-us-aeronautical-industry-make-good-products/91955/12 "2023-05-04T00:31:26Z")
> [@steve203](#): > > This is India, not the US or EU. Could the airline afford the parts? Did plane after plane get grounded? Why only half the fleet? This is probably a newer fleet. Was it only the Pratt engine planes? Or does hyperbole come into play? Of course it does. Was 25% of the fleet other planes already not being repaired? ---
**Author:** ![jerryab2](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/motleyfoolfree/user_avatar/discussion.fool.com/jerryab2/32/3274_2.png) [@jerryab2](https://discussion.fool.com/u/jerryab2)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2023, 1:53pm UTC](https://discussion.fool.com/t/cant-the-us-aeronautical-industry-make-good-products/91955/13 "2023-05-04T13:53:00Z")
> [@steve203](#): > > Their message system said to allow 48 hours for a reply. Bill them for YOUR time and expenses. Keep records and let them figure out how to pay your bill to them. You pay for your mistakes, they pay for theirs. ---
**Author:** ![steve203](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/motleyfoolfree/user_avatar/discussion.fool.com/steve203/32/3302_2.png) [@steve203](https://discussion.fool.com/u/steve203)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2023, 2:16pm UTC](https://discussion.fool.com/t/cant-the-us-aeronautical-industry-make-good-products/91955/14 "2023-05-04T14:16:23Z")
> [@jerryab2](#): > > Bill them for YOUR time and expenses. Keep records and let them figure out how to pay your bill to them. You pay for your mistakes, they pay for theirs. This is Shiny-land. Money only flows from the rest of us, _to_ the “JCs”. Trying to make money flow the other way is “socialistical”, thus, does not happen. Steve ---
**Author:** ![tjscott0](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/motleyfoolfree/user_avatar/discussion.fool.com/tjscott0/32/1083_2.png) [@tjscott0](https://discussion.fool.com/u/tjscott0)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2023, 2:19pm UTC](https://discussion.fool.com/t/cant-the-us-aeronautical-industry-make-good-products/91955/15 "2023-05-04T14:19:48Z")
> [@Leap1](#): > > Could the airline afford the parts? Did plane after plane get grounded? > > Why only half the fleet? This is probably a newer fleet. Was it only the Pratt engine planes? Or does hyperbole come into play? Of course it does. > > Was 25% of the fleet other planes already not being repaired? _While engine-reliability issues are not to blame for all of the inactivity, **it is playing a large role,** particularly in the harsh-environment regions._ _U.S. engine maker Pratt & Whitney has been struggling to support its fleet of passenger jets with enough spare parts and engines_ India Go uses largely Airbus aircraft but apparently they are powered by P&W engines. [https://www.planespotters.net/airline/IndiGo](https://www.planespotters.net/airline/IndiGo) > **[Spirit Airlines Could See Prolonged Challenges With Pratt Engines | Aviation...](https://aviationweek.com/air-transport/airlines-lessors/spirit-airlines-could-see-prolonged-challenges-pratt-engines)** > > Spirit Airlines expects to see some reduction in Airbus A320neo engine issues this year, but a return to normal could be up to 10 months away. ---
**Author:** ![MarkR](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/motleyfoolfree/user_avatar/discussion.fool.com/markr/32/2011_2.png) [@MarkR](https://discussion.fool.com/u/MarkR)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2023, 3:11pm UTC](https://discussion.fool.com/t/cant-the-us-aeronautical-industry-make-good-products/91955/16 "2023-05-04T15:11:17Z")
> [@steve203](#): > > Trying to make money flow the other way is “socialistical”, thus, does not happen. I wonder what would really happen if they received a bill from you. I mean, it would arrive in the mail, it would be routed to accounts payable, they would try to match it up with a purchase order, obviously it won’t match any PO, but since the amount is relatively low, it may be handled a different way (for orders of things without a purchase order). Would be interesting! ---
**Author:** ![jerryab2](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/motleyfoolfree/user_avatar/discussion.fool.com/jerryab2/32/3274_2.png) [@jerryab2](https://discussion.fool.com/u/jerryab2)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2023, 11:09pm UTC](https://discussion.fool.com/t/cant-the-us-aeronautical-industry-make-good-products/91955/17 "2023-05-04T23:09:25Z")
> [@steve203](#): > > This is Shiny-land. Money only flows from the rest of us, _to_ the “JCs”. I am a JC. If they don’t believe me, they can be fired. I can’t. LOL !!! ---
**Author:** ![Leap1](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/motleyfoolfree/user_avatar/discussion.fool.com/leap1/32/72176_2.png) [@Leap1](https://discussion.fool.com/u/Leap1)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2023, 11:31pm UTC](https://discussion.fool.com/t/cant-the-us-aeronautical-industry-make-good-products/91955/18 "2023-05-04T23:31:23Z")
> [@tjscott0](#): > > U.S. engine maker Pratt & Whitney has been struggling to support its fleet of passenger jets with enough spare parts and engines Not necessarily accurate or truthful. We do not know if the airline corporation was out of capital to buy the parts. The press never gets the full or real story. Dare they look? Heck no! Reporters often do not peak under the hood. ---
**Author:** ![DrBob2](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/motleyfoolfree/user_avatar/discussion.fool.com/drbob2/32/3456_2.png) [@DrBob2](https://discussion.fool.com/u/DrBob2)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2023, 1:24am UTC](https://discussion.fool.com/t/cant-the-us-aeronautical-industry-make-good-products/91955/19 "2023-05-05T01:24:41Z")
> [@Leap1](#): > > We do not know if the airline corporation was out of capital to buy the parts. > **[News](https://www.rtx.com/news?path=%2Fnews%2Fnews-center%2F2022%2F01%2F25%2Fraytheon-technologies-reports-2021-results-announces-2022-outlook%2F)** “Pratt & Whitney had fourth quarter 2021 adjusted sales of $5,115 million, up 14 percent versus the prior year…Pratt & Whitney recorded adjusted operating profit of $162 million in the quarter, up 54 percent versus the prior year.” DB2 ---
**Author:** ![Leap1](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/motleyfoolfree/user_avatar/discussion.fool.com/leap1/32/72176_2.png) [@Leap1](https://discussion.fool.com/u/Leap1)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2023, 3:46am UTC](https://discussion.fool.com/t/cant-the-us-aeronautical-industry-make-good-products/91955/20 "2023-05-05T03:46:58Z")
I was talking about the Indian company not Pratt. [Next page](https://discussion.fool.com/t/cant-the-us-aeronautical-industry-make-good-products/91955.md?page=2)