DEI risk to corporations

[PuddinHead42]

@steve203

I don’t know what funding systems other states use. In Michigan, the state funding follows the student.

That is great, very few states allow that. You are implying that once a charter school goes out of business, the children may no longer have ANY school to go to. I highly doubt that implication. In a free market of schools, new ones will spring up to fill the demand. There are plenty of airlines and car companies that went out of business, but we still drive and fly. Somebody wants that money and thinks they can make a profit.

People will say charter schools will just be created to take the money and not teach, well, I think public schools and charter schools should be regulated for quality in the same manner. We must prevent poor educational product wherever it exists.

On a side note, I can envision a future where any child can interact with an AI teacher (let’s call it a teacher’s aide). The agent knows the child, there current learning level, their learning style, their weaknesses. It can teach to MASTERY with every child. It can provide reports and grades. Daily summaries to parents if wanted. Our school systems need to be committed to maximizing use of technology and AI will be easier to use than any technology we have today.

[steve203]

@PuddinHead42

Show me a Catholic schools where children have lower “reading at grade level” and “math at grade level” scores

The difference, of course, is that public schools are required to take everyone. Private schools can pick and choose who they want to admit.

My aunt, a public school teacher, for decades, could tell you how important parental engagement is in their spawn’s education. Parents who are motivated enough to get off the couch and enroll their spawn in a charter, will be inclined to be more supportive of the school’s efforts to educate their spawn, vs parents who are disengaged. Parents who, not only go to the effort to enroll their kids in anything but the default public school, plus pay out of pocket, will be even more engaged in their kid’s education. In effect, charters, and more so, privates, effectively skim off the students more likely to succeed, and leave the dregs in the public schools.

How important is parental involvement? As I said, my aunt, who lived around the corner when I was going up, was an elementary school teacher. I was always receiving books for birthdays and Christmas. Consequently, my reading skill was years ahead of my classmates. Ever see the early 60s movie version of “Mysterious Island”? At one point, the leader of the group worked out what their location was by longitude and latitude. Watching the movie, I jotted down those numbers, ran into my bedroom to retrieve the globe my aunt had given me. and looked at where the island supposedly was.

Steve

[steve203]

@PuddinHead42

That is great, very few states allow that.

You may recall TIG’s Secretary of Education, on the first go around, Betsy DeVos. She is from Michigan, and a leader of the school privatization movement. With the pressure, and money, from folks of her inclination, Michigan has been one of the leading states in promoting charters, for decades. Now, the push is for the state to subsidize thoroughly private schools, who do discriminate among applicants. Their plans to not include an increase in the state education budget, so, subsidizing privates, will take money away from public and charter schools.

@PuddinHead42

People will say charter schools will just be created to take the money and not teach, well, I think public schools and charter schools should be regulated for quality in the same manner.

Sadly, some charter operators see their schools as nothing but a profit center. Michigan law requires charters be run as not-for-profit. What happens, some times, is a for-profit company sets up a not-for-profit front, to obtain the charter. Then the front company contracts with the for-profit company to actually run the school. Some charters, usually the ones sponsored by an established, and respectable, civic organization, do try to do a decent job.

@PuddinHead42

On a side note, I can envision a future where any child can interact with an AI teacher (let’s call it a teacher’s aide). The agent knows the child, there current learning level, their learning style, their weaknesses.

One of my better movers of late, has been “Stride”, formerly “K-12 Education” which produces canned, on line, course material. A system like you suggest would be a natural development for Stride to embrace.

Thing is, public schools are not just about “reading, writing, and arithmetic”. They function as cultural indoctrination centers. This is nothing new, with “woke” or “CRT”. This was the case 60 years ago. I have particularly vivid memories of the anti-Communist lessons. And, they get the kids acclimated to interacting with other people. A kid who sits in front of a computer all day, rather than interacting with people, for some portion of the time, may be a little awkward, when society starts pressuring him to conform by getting married and having children…as a for instance.

Steve

[NewInvestorKinda]

There was this idea or promise of public education available to all or to the masses that was part of the american dream. The vouchers for private school allow money to “follow the learner”. But take away from this dream. They decrease the cost of private schools but dont make it free.

Essentially its still only middle and upper classes that have access to it (arguabely they would have had access anyways). But by taking money away from public education it essentially guarantees a 2 tier system with everyone who is capable avoiding the lesser funded public system.

It does become a bit of the chicken and egg argument. Does public education suck and ppl are leaving or does public education suck bc we incentivized ppl to leave and take thier funding with them.

At the very least it becomes a vicious cycle. And in this cycle we hand over control of our childrens education to private corporations/nonprofits/religious organizations that have thier own motivations and of which we have no control or input into

[steve203]

@NewInvestorKinda

There was this idea or promise of public education available to all or to the masses that was part of the american dream. The vouchers for private school allow momey to “follow the learner”. But take away from this dream. They decrease the cost of private schools but dont make it free.

When i was in high school, some 55 years ago, tuition, and transportation to/from school, were free, but I still had to pay for books and supplies. Then, someone filed suit, contending “free public education” meant “free”, and won. So, in my senior year, books, pens, pencils, and notebook paper were provided.

Things have changed. I happened to look through the course catalog for the high school in Farmington Hills, MI a couple years ago. Not only do the kids need to buy their books, and supplies, again, but every academic course now has a fee attached. Most book-learning classes have a fee of $10-$15. The fee for the debate class ran into $3-400, probably due to transportation costs for debate competition. But playing football is free, in spite of the equipment, facilities, and transportation services required.

If Farmington Hills is typical, “free” high school, in Michigan, is a distant memory.

This historical marker is in front of the high school I attended. The marker is about a case where some local rich folks did not want to pay taxes to educate other people’s spawn. Like Roe, this case could be overturned at any time, and high school become rationed by ability to pay, a lot.

Steve

[PuddinHead42]

@steve203

Private schools can pick and choose who they want to admit.

I see private schools and charter schools as different. Before Obama eliminated charter schools in DC, selection was by lottery. In the Harlem project, they split to the school down the middle and randomly assigned students to public or charter. In this case, there was not action by parents and the charter school children pulled farther ahead each year. So, it seems like it can be done if we look at the cup as half-full and give it a shot.

Parental involvement is absolutely important, totally agree. It will make the outcome better. Imagine the joy of being able to move your kid from a zombie school to a charter school. That change alone could encourage parents to get involved. I am optimistic that it would.

[PuddinHead42]

@steve203

Now, the push is for the state to subsidize thoroughly private schools, who do discriminate among applicants. Their plans to not include an increase in the state education budget, so, subsidizing privates, will take money away from public and charter schools.

I would not have a problem being against that. It could certainly be solved if desired. I also don’t have heartburn with a rich person sending their kid to private school and the money follows the kid. A rich person is probably paying a lot more property tax than a poor parent, so they are still subsidizing kids other than their own.

What happens, some times, is a for-profit company sets up a not-for-profit front, to obtain the charter. Then the front company contracts with the for-profit company to actually run the school.

I would not be opposed to fixing that or tossing cheaters in jail. Everyone must play by the rules to keep society civil.

Thing is, public schools are not just about “reading, writing, and arithmetic”. They function as cultural indoctrination centers. This is nothing new, with “woke” or “CRT”. This was the case 60 years ago. I have particularly vivid memories of the anti-Communist lessons. And, they get the kids acclimated to interacting with other people. A kid who sits in front of a computer all day, rather than interacting with people, for some portion of the time, may be a little awkward, when society starts pressuring him to conform by getting married and having children…as a for instance.

I am not saying kids have to be at home, they can go to school and do the work with AI there. In fact, that may be much needed for poorer children that don’t have good access at home, or don’t have a support home environment. I would be for transparency too. A parent should be able directly obtain learning summaries from their child’s AI teacher. If there is a course on trans-communist-protest training, a parent should be able to know.

My wife vividly recalls being told in kindergarten that smoking was bad and all the kids were told to go home and tell their parents to stop smoking. She did and she said the stopped. That was a good thing, but who gets to decide what is good. The horror stories of lining up kids by skin color and labeling oppressors and victims by skin color is anathema to me. Young kids are not seeing color, just people. We have to train them to see the difference. Seems wrong. Again, where to we want to draw the line as a society? When is it ideology and brainwashing. But those are subject for another thread.

Are you familiar with the Khan Acadamy? Great teaching resource that should be used by more schools, teachers and parents now. Subjects are presented in easy to understand ways and kids can learn at their own pace. In fact, one of my co-workers had to take a statistics class for her continuing education. She told me she was having a hard time learning from the teacher. That night I looked at Khan academy and found the course she needed. I also took the course just to check it out. She was extremely grateful for that and said it presented the data in a way she could easily understand and she passed her class. I too found it an easy way to learn. I even tried out first grade math classes to see how the explained it. I highly recommend it and I highly recommend donating. Education is dear to me and I have put Khan Academy in my will because of the great resource they are providing around the world.

[PuddinHead42]

@NewInvestorKinda

But by taking money away from public education it essentially guarantees a 2 tier system with everyone who is capable avoiding the lesser funded public system.

Not everything is made better by free market competition, but most things are. There are counties that have great educational systems (e.g. Finland) without any competition. I would be satisfied if we could do that here, but that has proven impossible. I may blame unions (not teachers) too much, but when you get to elect the people that give you a raise, things can go wrong. When you get a cost of living raise just because you show up at work, things will go wrong.

About 20 years ago or so I read a story in Forbes about the teacher of the year in California. It was her first year and she worked hard and late and did a great job, after all, she became teacher of the year. The next year, California had to lay off some teachers, she was one of the first to go because she did not have seniority. Does that sound like a good system to you? In a competitive market, you would never fire your best employees, your competition would grab them and eat your lunch. That is why the money should follow the child, people should be free to choose.

If anyone on this board has not read “Free to Choose” by Milton Freedman and his wife, read it, make your kids read it.

Remember when there was no competition for the post office? No UPS, No FedEx, no email, not text messaging. The postal service has had to become more like a business and provide customer service once real competition came in. That is all I am asking for.

[steve203]

@PuddinHead42

A rich person is probably paying a lot more property tax than a poor parent, so they are still subsidizing kids other than their own.

In Michigan, since a “reform” pushed through some years ago, most school funding comes from Lansing, rather than from local property taxes. Lottery revenue, gambling taxes, pot taxes, are among the revenue sources supposedly earmarked for education, ie, several of the revenue sources are pretty well decoupled from personal income. Here is a pie chart of revenue sources for the state “school aid fund”.

@PuddinHead42

In the Harlem project, they split to the school down the middle and randomly assigned students to public or charter. In this case, there was not action by parents and the charter school children pulled farther ahead each year. So, it seems like it can be done if we look at the cup as half-full and give it a shot.

The article I linked above notes that, in poor neighborhoods, students in charters do tend to do significantly better than kids in the default public schools. But the advantage of charters vanishes in areas where incomes are a bit higher.

Steve

[PuddinHead42]

@steve203

The article I linked above notes that, in poor neighborhoods, students in charters do tend to do significantly better than kids in the default public schools. But the advantage of charters vanishes in areas where incomes are a bit higher.

Yes, because in higher income areas, parents can have power over politicians to some extent. Poor people don’t donate. Guess where the potholes get fixed first.

[steve203]

@PuddinHead42

Guess where the potholes get fixed first.

In Michigan, that is a trick question. The (L&Ses) in Lansing allocate road funding according to the number of lane miles or road in each county, regardless how much traffic is on those roads.

Most of the population, high wages, and economic activity, is in the southeast corner of the state, around metro Detroit, which leans moderate/left. But, for forty years, the other side gerrymandered themselves into an unassailable majority in both houses of the legislature, in addition to their compadres winning Gov, AG, and SecState about half the time.

I had a conversation about this with the township engineer during a presentation for a ballot proposal to levy a local property tax, for road maintenance, because the county and state were not getting the job done. Then I went to a meet and greet with a candidate for Gov, and asked him about it. He confirmed what the engineer told me, and added, words to the effect “the majority of the majority party in the legislature come from those out-state counties that benefit from the current system, so it isn’t going to change”. So, essentially, whose pothole gets patched is dictated by a minority in the legislature, because they are the majority of the majority party.

Steve