First-time homebuyers are MIA -- renting

I don’t think these numbers and suggested returns make any sense for homes, as you describe them.

Just to try to keep it simple, without the spreadsheets:

You buy a 500k home with 100k down, borrowing 400k at say 5% interest (pick your favorite rate).

You say homes appreciate at 4.3%.

Please explain how

  1. you borrow 400k for home equity at 5% interest (or whatever rate)
  2. your 400k equity appreciates at 4.3%
  3. and you somehow earn 10% on an asset earning 4.3% whose purchase is funded at 5% ?

Not following.

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The same way you can take say you’re earning 10% on your down payment if you put it into the market, even though you have to reduce your investment by $X per month every month for rent.

The simplifying assumption is that you’re paying your rent out of funds that aren’t your investment funds. The parallel simplifying assumption for the ownership side of the ledger is that you’re paying your mortgage out of funds that aren’t your investment funds as well.

You’re absolutely right that the home calculation does not accurately reflect the entire impact on your finances, because (of course) you still have to pay the mortgage. But similarly, the rent calculation doesn’t accurately reflect the entire impact on your finances, because (of course) you still have to pay the rent.

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ok, but this statement on returns on home as an asset is just not correct:

just considering interest costs (not all of the other costs already mentioned upthread), the annual cash flow (approx in year 1, interest declines as principal on mortgage is paid down) on the home is

4.3% x 400k = 17.2k home financed appreciation (money borrowed)
minus
5% x 400k = 20k interest costs
equals
-2.8k annually

and then you would earn
4.3% x 100k = 4.3k home equity appreciation (down payment)

for total annual cash flow of
-2.8k + 4.3k = +1.5k per year

+1.5k on 100k invested (down payment) is 1.5% annual return (approx in year 1)

Your return on cash invested (down payment) will be somewhere between 4.3% (unleveraged return) and 4.3% - 5% (leveraged return).

To get the benefit of leverage, the unleveraged return needs to be larger than the cost of funds (mortgage rate) (plus other costs of ownership, if you really want to evaluate home as an investment).

What am I missing?

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Again, it’s just the return on the down payment - ignoring the cost of servicing the mortgage. It’s not your actual return, which would include the cost of the mortgage.

I think what you’re missing is that this is set up to be parallel to what intercst was talking about upthread. He noted that when he first moved to Houston in 1981, you could purchase a condo for $45K. Which would be a down payment of $9K. Or you could rent an equivalent condo for $400 per month. He then described the alternative scenario -

But, you wouldn’t have $693K today…right? You’d have nothing. Because if you put $9K in the market in 1981 instead of buying a house, that’s great and all…but then you have to pay $400 per month in rent. And if you take that $400 per month out of your S&P 500 account, the account will be empty in a little over two years.

So within this comparison, the assumption is that he’s paying his rent out of funds that are considered separate from the calculation of the investment returns. So if you wanted to make the equivalent comparison to the “buy” scenario, you would do the same thing - assume that the payment of the mortgage comes from another bucket of funds that you are not including in your calculation of your overall investment returns. So that all you’re looking at is what happens to the money that would be a down payment vs. going into the market, and not the (vastly larger) sums that have to be paid to either cover your rent or the mortgage.

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Doesn’t the cost benefits of owning a home increase dramatically after the mortgage is paid off. The renter is still paying rent. The homeowner only taxes, insurance and maintenance.

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We paid our LTBH home soon after I retired, to help shut off those monthly outgoing expenses. Another biggee here in CA, was the old Prop 13 Tax rate limitations, it’s kept out property taxes way down, relative to neighbors, family, friends who’ve been moving about, upscaling in a way, where ours remained relatively low. So most likely we’ve pumped that spare cash back into the home, fixits, updates, maintenance. Luckily, I was able to do a lot of that work myself, evenings, weekends, like upgrading all the windows, sliding doors to Andersen double pane, losing the sliders for french doors, adding additional doors, as well..
DIY abilities are a pretty big chunk of home ownership, I even added a 16x24 workshop, filled with power tools n such… Not happening if I’d rented…

Interesting thread, thanks to all!

weco

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No. When I arrived in Houston in 1981 I had two cholces; rent for $400/month, or put $9,000 down on a $45,000 condo identical to the apartment I was renting.

Mortgage interest, HOA fees and taxes were more than $400/month, but the interest and high Houston property taxes were deductible, so if you were in a high enough tax bracket your monthly after tax out-of-pocket was about equal to the $400/month rent. Your bet was the miracle of real estate leverage and your willingness to accept the burdens and hassles of owning a home would make your $9,000 down payment grow at a faster rate than putting it the stock market. I’m paying $400/month out of pocket whether I’m a homeowner or a renter. So I did in fact have the $9,000 available to invest in the stock market if I didn’t use it as a down payment. The $693,000 S&P 500 account is as real as the $100,000 Houston condo value after 40 years.

The second argument is “your rent includes all the maintenance expenses of home ownership” and it does. But if you’re renting in a large professionally managed apartment complex, the landlord is buying maintenance services at wholesale prices. They have an immigrant laborer on staff who can repair an air conditioner. The condo owners have to individually call in a contractor on their own dime at a much higher rate. Of course, if you have the technical skill to troubleshoot a HVAC system you can do it yourself for about the same cost as the commercial landlord. But that happens infrequently. And while I do my own HVAC work now that I’m retired and have the time, it wouldn’t make sense to do so when I was working and my hourly rate as an engineer was much higher than an HVAC tech.

intercst

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It does.And after 30 years, the dividend yield on the S&P 500 index fund is more than enough to pay your full rent, while the homeowner is only paying “taxes, insurance and maintenance.” {{ LOL }}

Even after 40 years, the 1.6% dividend yield on the $693,000 S&P 500 account (about $11,000/yr) was more than enough pay the full $850/month rent in 2021.

intercst

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Ok, but you made a statement about home appreciation versus S&P returns, which I am replying to - I’m not saying anything about rent.

Now you are saying “not your actual return” but below with home vs S&P, you say “actual return over a 30-year time frame.”

Your bolded statement below, at face value, about home vs S&P returns, is not accurate.

If you think your home vs S&P return claim is correct, then please show the calculation that leads to homes appreciating 10.1%.

the bold part is not correct, unless you can explain it - and it’s not hard to explain why it ia incorrect, I just gave the numbers upthread

Here, what follows, is a correct statement:

“when investing 100k in a house vs S&P, S&P wins unless home appreciation rate > mortgage interest rate (plus other costs)

and even then, with positive return after costs, S&P 10% return will win versus A LOT of US real estate with 4.3% average returns”

and when you write leveraged return, you cannot speak of leveraged return without considering borrowing and cost of funds

Over the years, I’ve tried to create a proper “rent versus buy” spreadsheet. First thing I noticed is that you can’t even attempt to do a straight line (assume everything is the same) over time calculation. Because the real world doesn’t come close to that. Second thing I noticed is that risk has to be taken into account, because in this case (homeownership), risk will cost you actual money out of your pocket. Third thing is that location, location, location is really true, the assumptions of what will happen over 20, 30, or 40 years almost all depends on location (Boston did great, Detroit didn’t, etc). Fourth, expenses, especially homeownership expenses, are a lot more variable that one would typically expect. Fifth, there are particular expenses (and hassles) that come with homeownership that rarely come with renting. When you rent and you want to “upgrade”, you usually plan a move, and move to a nicer place, and pay more rent. When you own, you usually do renovations, and those are expensive and disruptive. We’ve done renovations 3 times over the years, for the big renovation, my wife and kids moved out for 3 months, while I stayed in the mess to supervise the work as best as possible. I cooked all my meals for over 3 months straight on an outdoor grill.

Add all that stuff together and it’s pretty much impossible to make such a spreadsheet. Oh, you could make a trivial spreadsheet, but it won’t really be meaningful.

As an example of “risk”, especially for @WendyBG who mentioned “work” earlier. When you work, probably 30 or 40 years of your homeownership period, you have a risk that you will have to move. And moving, selling a home, buying another home, etc costs quite a lot of money. And that’s real money that comes out of your pocket from the proceeds of selling your previous home. When calculating returns over 30 or 40 years, you need to take that into account. I think I’ve read that the average person moves every 7 or 8 years. That’s 4 or 5 moves over a full career, and the expenses of those moves subtracted from the return! The expenses of investing in an S&P500 index fund are much lower, and moving doesn’t change them at all.

In the end, I gave up. The spreadsheet I had created was essentially worthless, and almost everything has to be based on some assumption (that didn’t hold true for all cases anyway). I once tried to tally up all the cash flows for each case over 40 years and then calculate a true IRR, but that also was full of rampant assumptions (like when do you replace the roof and how much does it cost, when do you refinance, how much did a sale/buy when switching a house really cost, what if you finance those costs, ho much did rent really go up? Did you rent something exactly comparable or were you willing to rent something a little lesser, or did you rent something a little better with more amenities than a house might have, etc) And it goes on and on and on … really an exercise in futility.

But that said, I think we can all agree that when the ratio of renting to buying is very high, it’s probably better to buy, and when the ratio of renting to buying is very low, it’s probably a good time to rent. Of course, if you want to buy for non-financial reasons, you should of course buy when convenient regardless of price ratios. And there are plenty of good non-financial reasons. We bought a house in the 90s, and even though we were only 2 people (pregnant with our first), we still decided to buy a 4 bedroom instead of a smaller house, even though smaller would be sufficient. My thought process at the time was that as we have more kids, we will need more space, and to avoid the costs and hassle of moving, we may as well just buy the bigger house at the start. So far, it’s worked out fine. We are still in the same house, and all 5 of our kids have lived their entire childhood here in this house. They’re all in their 20s now, and some of them have moved out. Two are married and each of the married couples will be giving us our first grandchildren that are expected sometime later this year. Can’t wait!!!

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Given the example I provided, below, I don’t see how anyone can think/defend/believe the idea that 4.3% home appreciation minus recurring homeownership costs can get 10% return, like the S&P.

There are many benefits of home ownership, but investment returns are low on the list, unless your property purchase is exceptionally different from average in lower cost and/or price appreciation (and those cases certainly exist).

Here’s the example:

It is just math. Go back to a $500,000 house that requires a $100K down payment. At the end of a 30 year mortgage that $100K will lead to full ownership of a $1.6M house. Alternatively the renter can put that $100K in an index fund and after 30 years at 10% end up with $1.7M. Not a big difference. Either way that $100K appreciates at a similar rate.

Yes, the owner has to pay a monthly mortgage, but the renter has to pay a monthly rent. The simplifying assumption is that the two cancel each other out.

Yes there is a large interest expense on a 30 year mortgage. But on average, rent increases about 3-4% per year. The simplifying assumption is that these two expenses cancel each other out.

Given the conditions of 10% annual increase in index fund value and 4% annual home appreciation, I don’t see much justification for the claim that renting is an obviously better investment choice.

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Don’t forget that the Houston condo only had about 1% average annual appreciation over 40 years. It’s was a comfortable place to live in a convenient location, but for whatever reason didn’t appreciate much.

The 4.3% US average residential appreciation rate isn’t guaranteed to the individual homeowner. About half are getting less than 4% or even a loss, whereas you can guarantee yourself the average US stock market return no matter where you live in the country by purchasing a low-fee S&P 500 index fund. There are lots of places around the country where you can earn a healthy salary as an engineer, even if the housing in the area isn’t appreciating much. Houston was just such a place from 1981-2006.(except for a few years around 1986 to 1989, when I decamped to the beach in San Diego) {{ LOL }}

intercst

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That’s problem. I can guarantee the 10% average return of the stock market by purchasing an index fund. But I can’t guaranty the 4% annual home appreciation on an individual home purchaser, about half of them nationwide are appreciating at a rate of less than that – sometimes a lot less, or even a loss.

intercst

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I’ve read the same study.

The moving expenses wouldn’t deter me even if I was a homeowner. As an engineer working for Fortune 500 companies throughout my blissfully short 17-year engineering career, it was pretty standard to get a full relocation package with a Federal income Tax “gross-up” on your taxable moving expenses. Moving just cost you time and inconvenience. With a generous relocation package, you might even make a few dollars on the actual movement of your household goods. {{ LOL }}

But yes, if you’re doing that on your own dime, it’s catastrophic.

intercst

Because the bold part is just referring to the return on the down payment. Not the return on the down payment and the cost of paying the mortgage. Just like intercst is only citing the return on the amount of that payment invested in the stock market and not the return on that money and the cost of rent.

That’s what I think you’re missing. If you ignore the rent payments in looking at what you get if you invest that down payment in the stock market instead of a house, you have to account for the analogous payments in the ownership scenario as well.

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Thank you, I needed that one sentence to understand why a house could have the same appreciation as S&P.

Concise is better, for me, at least.

Looking at this statement below, and even with all of the further explanations, lost me.

I don’t have a strong view of rent vs buy, every property is unique.

I just view housing as an expense to be minimized for a given level of comfort.

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Well to be accurate, that $100k plus $861,627.80 of mortgage payments will get you ownership of a $1.6M house plus a place to live for 30 years. Also, that $1.6M is only if you chose the right location. If you worked in Michigan and chose pretty much any town in the region, then it would very likely be ownership of an $800-900k house at the end. In fact, out of the 10 largest cities in the USA, only 4 of them would have seen such large gains in home value (NYC, LA, San Jose, and San Diego).

Yes, in those years engineers were living well. Every relocation came with a bump in salary. It was almost always worth moving. Not so today.

Not anymore. Relo packages are now very rare and usually only pretty senior execs get them. I suppose top AI developers get them too (considering that Meta is willing to pay them many millions just to join).

My last move to my current (and only) house had a VERY generous relocation package. First they paid business class tickets for my wife and I ($5.2k each!) to visit the new location and scout out the local real estate scene. Hotel and meals for a week at the new location. Then another set of business class tickets when we moved ($3k each). Then they paid a month of rent and paid for a full set of rental furniture for the empty house for over 6 months. Then they paid to move all our stuff, some from overseas*, and some from my previous home in NY. And they paid to store all our stuff until we found a house and moved into it. And they paid for most of the closing costs. It was delightful. They even provided us access to a “relocation consultant”, she was fun to talk to, but she was essentially useless as we knew the neighborhood way better than she did because I had a sibling that lived here for many years before that.

Most people did it on their own dime back then, only a relatively small class of professionals got relo packages (all execs got them, of course). And today, almost everyone does it on their own dime. I interviewed and hired quite a few people that were relocating, and after about 2003, I was never able to get any of them a relo package. At best they would get a small lump sum added to their signing bonus to “help” with the relocation.

* When the movers came to pack up our apartment overseas, it was hilarious. My wife was away on a weeklong trip with her mom and sisters. So I didn’t have much of an idea what should be packed and what shouldn’t. In the end they packed EVERYTHING, literally everything that was in that apartment. They packed all the toothbrushes in each bathroom. They packed half full shampoo bottles. They packed each kitchen utensil separately in paper. Each tiny item was wrapped in paper, and then placed in a box. I remember them labeling all the boxes with a number and keeping an inventory list. When all the stuff finally arrived 7 months later (when we moved into out house), and we opened the boxes, it was crazy. One box was missing, and their insurance paid us something like $300 for it. It was labelled “kitchenware” and “glassware”. But till today, we can’t recall what might have been in that box. There was no way for me to supervise all 5 guys who were packing up the apartment, each guy in a different room most of the time. And only one item in all those boxes broke - it was Bodum thin glass serving bowl of sorts that had a cork inset under it. It cracked, and their insurance paid for that too. They really packed everything very well.

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Not sure if you caught this, but for the rent vs buy relative comparison on returns on investment, at least some on this thread are making this assumption:

So your statement about mortgage payments doesn’t matter for rent vs buy, in some of the discussion above.

I solved that by requesting that the moving company give me 15 or 20 boxes ahead of time that I could pack and label myself (which wouldn’t be insured against damage since I did the packing.) And then I let the movers pack the fragile stuff so that that would be insured. So then at the new location, I had a better idea of what was in each box.

I had one move where the movers inadvertently packed the inventory list in one of the boxes, and then proceeded to tear apart about 20 of them before they found it.

intercst