Haiti: Why not call out the National Guard to get rid of the gangs?

Law and order has to be the first step. Without it, civilization can’t function.

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What exactly do you men by “get rid of”?

What? And give up our “essential freedoms?”

Arrest them and put them in jail is fine with me. Or street warfare. What ever it takes.

Endless violence and kidnappings has to stop.

Law and order must prevail.

Whose National Guard? Haiti doesn’t have one.

I certainly don’t want ours to go in there. Let the UN deal with the mess.

Hawkwin
Who thinks US National Guard in Haiti would lead to a similar result as troops in Somali.

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Maybe you know better than I do. But are you saying Haiti has no national defense? Maybe some one should invade.

Certainly in the US, National Guard can be called in to put down disorder. If Haiti is defenseless, perhaps that is the source of their problem. Nothing to counter the gangs.

In Mexico, they tell us silver or lead is the choice cartels give to police etc. If you look the other way and allow cartel operations, you will be on the cartel payroll and be rewarded. If you refuse, you will be assassinated and we will make the same offer to your replacement.

This form of corruption may well be behind the troubles in Haiti and many central American countries. Difficult to displace. Unless voters get organized and make it happen. Surprise, surprise. No elections possible.

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We did, back in the Woodrow Wilson era before The Great War. We were concerned about foreign influences in the country - France and Germany, I think, and we basically took it over. Lasted 20 years.

I would think we’d be glad to take it over except there’s not much there worth taking over. Show a sudden spike in lithium mining and I bet we’d rethink that.

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Nah, I just try to do a little research before I post. Usually. (not intended to be a dig)

Without its own military, Haiti relies heavily on United Nations (UN) peacekeeping forces. The multinational force has been responsible for quelling riots and preparing for democratic elections. Before UN forces arrived, a multilateral force made up of troops from Canada, Chile, France, and the United States helped stabilize the country under the interim leadership of President Boniface Alexandre.[4]


Note they do have a police force and a Coast Guard.

You only invade a country that has resources worth stealing. I don’t think Haiti does. You certainly don’t invade to bring peace - or at least one shouldn’t.

The absolute worst combat environment for any military force is fighting irregulars (hostiles without an identified uniform) in an urban setting. I don’t know of a good example of any military ever winning against such.

The only way Haiti gets fixed is by their own populace deciding they have had enough. We can help with that but I doubt anyone would be effective in trying to do it for them. They need the will and motivation (and hope?!?) to do it themselves.

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You and Goofy both said what I was thinking. Who would invade Haiti? There isn’t anything worth stealing. Therefore, Haiti doesn’t really need a “national defense” force.

More a matter of the “Roosevelt Corollary”: trying to keep European powers out of the West Indies…which control access to the Panama Canal, that Roosevelt had under construction. There was frequent US intervention in Mexico, elsewhere in Central America, Haiti, Dominican Republic, and others. For a while, Cuba was an official US “protectorate”. That all came to an end in 1934, along with putting the Philippines on a path to independence.

Steve

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I thought Haiti was founded as a French colony to raise sugar cane, a very valuable commodity in Europe until sugar beets were developed about 1870. Cane could not be grown in most of Europe making sugar only available to the wealthy.

Sugar was so valuable that Caribbean colonies did not raise their own food. They were supplied in trade with the American colonies often trading rum for vegetables etc.

Then came the major slave rebellion in Haiti. The French tried to resolve it but failed. Since then its been bumpy there.

Do they still raise sugar cane? Do they feed themselves or still trade for food crops?

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Not only did slave holders teach slaves ‘valuable skills,’ they also want payment for the tuition.

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I don’t know about sugar cane but they are still dependent on the rest of the world for food.

‘Haiti can’t wait’: People on the brink as hunger levels rise, warns food security report | World Food Programme.

They could probably feed themselves if not for the violence and political turmoil that keeps anything much beyond subsistence farming from happening. The DR which shares their island has nearly the same population and of course is a popular tourist destination and retirement location for North American Expats.

Hawkwin
Who if was world Emperor, would required Haiti and DR to merge under the authority of the DR.

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Here’s what Geoff a Geographer on YouTube says.

There’s a mountain ridge that separates Haiti from DR, which changes weather patterns in Haiti. Which affects crops, food, forest growth, etc.
Geoff discussed colonization, political history, etc, and concludes "Haiti has no functional courts, no government, no functional State, and is controlled by criminal gangs.

:haiti:
ralph

Almost as bad at the US.

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You can easily understand why Haitians who can are eager to apply for asylum on our Southern border. Another disaster case, failing government that contributes to immigration pressures.

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El Salvador and Guatemala are the current models for “Lock them up” as the go-to fix for the terrifying problem of criminal domination of public life, but to me it always seemed obvious that this would mostly most likely be a failed solution, and would act as a cover for a murderous settling of scores (remember that in street reality the police and military of those countries are themselves if not criminal, then mostly occupying powers acting on behalf of the wealthy rather than the public good. The mass arrests and aftermath are mostly a clearing of the board of the least successful criminals to open the way for a new joust at the same old game of power, but with some changes of characters and rules. The public itself will simply suffer from police barbarism while the The news from Guatemala and Salvardor increasingly includes mumbles about how it is all going.

Ferocious imprisonment probably needs to be part of the cure for criminals controlling society, but the main thing needing curing is

the criminality within the traditional wealthy/political/military ruling classes of Central America and Haiti (and quite a few othe places***), and
the collapse of significant public comprehension of and commitment to

civil society as a GOOD above almost all other goods
the absolute necessity of defending legitimate governance

The above described collapses are the crux failure (criminality quickly followed).
***…Venezuela, Sahelian Africa, Pakistan, Mexico, Israel, Poland, Hungary, the UKofGB, and, uhmmm, even the USA? come to mind

david fb

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Reminds me of the song by the Who. Won’t Get Fooled Again.
Meet the new boss same as the old boss."

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I’m amazed at the spirit of hopelessness on this board.

Surely someone thinks we can do better to improve. Have we no progressives here?

Freedom is not something that can be imposed by external forces. The only path to true freedom is to fight for it. And in the process of fighting for it, some will die, some will lose quite a lot, but when they persevere, they have true freedom. If the people of Haiti want freedom, they have to fight for it. Right now, it appears that not enough of them want freedom.

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What you infer as hopelessness is probably just us expressing sober reality. It is not OUR place to do better to improve. You can’t force good governance, justice, and freedom on a people unless they really want it - and if they really want it, they probably don’t much need our help.
I would hope our decades of misadventure have helped us to realize this.

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