Haiti: Why not call out the National Guard to get rid of the gangs?

Some point out that poverty is the underlying driver of all of this. Wealth inequality all over again.

Raising the global standard of living is good business for all of us. And takes pressure off the immigration problem. Progressives should be working on it. And believe progress can be made.

The US has been pumping money into Haiti going back 1920’s. For almost two decades, the Clinton’s spearheaded an effort to build and update infrastructure, ports and commercial centers. It’s been an unmitigated disaster with little to show for it, except we managed to wipe out what was left of their farming operations with free and cheaply imported rice and other staples. Little has changed, few lessons learned and yet the same progressive policies persist without end.

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Can we do better? What do you suggest?

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Hmmm.
I know the MX I visit does not match the sensational hysteria to which the Media goes in it’s reports.

The linked video suggests Haiti is also unjustly portrayed in the media?

:face_with_monocle:
ralph

Prop o’ganda. Potemkin Village stuff

They could certainly do better. Check out the comparison with the Dominican Republic on the other half of the island.

                 GDP per capita
Haiti               $ 3,200
Dominican Republic  $25,900

DB2

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What an adventure! 10 years, 200+ countries.

Man who visited every country without flying has finally returned home
By Kate Springer
Updated 4:27 AM EDT, Wed August 2, 2023

<<“I stayed in the homes of many, many strangers during my travelson my trip, and I made it through every country in the world – the ones with armed conflict, the ones with virus outbreaks – unharmed,” he exclaims.

“Either I’m the luckiest man on the planet, or the world is in a much better place than most people are led to believe by the scary, dramatic news on social media and news channels.”>>

This echoes my experiences in MX and Central America, which are great places, in spite of the fearful drama portrayed on social media and news channels.

:earth_americas:
ralph

Gosh, it sounds almost like Iraq! Except for the “progressive policies” part.

Maybe it’s a little more complicated than that.

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LOL, probably a perfect example of Survivorship Bias. Of course, we will never hear from those that made it to only 92 countries and died or stopped travelling due to violence. o.0

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No, we tried it there and Afghanistan. Progressives always try to leapfrog the idea that sovereignty of the individual took probably 500 years of evolution before it even rooted itself as part of the early American colonies. There’s also the question of the role of natural resources in providing a sustainable economic platform. Although, Israel has proven to be an exception.

You would think there would be a steady stream of refugees fleeing Haiti for Dominican Republic. Is that happening? If not, why not?

There appears to be quite a bit, but there is also a long history of animosity and violence in both directions as well as legal chicanery that would otherwise have it higher.

Snip:

In the 1960s, after the fall of the dictatorship of Trujillo, Haitian immigration boomed: according to Joaquín Balaguer, 30,000 Haitians crossed the border between 1960 and 1965.[14] During the administrations of Joaquín Balaguer, Antonio Guzmán and Salvador Jorge Blanco, in Dominican Republic, and the Duvaliers, in Haiti, the influx of Haitian labourers was continuous and was increasing. Every year contracts were signed between both countries for the importation of over ten thousand Haitians as temporary workers (although they were rarely returned to their country) in exchange for the payment of millions of dollars.

Haitian influence and migration has been strong on and off since the early 1800s, one of the main reasons there has always been tensions. During the early-mid 1800s, around the periods of the Haitian Revolution and the Dominican War of Independence, Haitian soldiers would massacre innocent people including children, and raped women resulting in small numbers of Dominicans having distant Haitian ancestry without even knowing. In addition, many mixed Haitian-Dominican families have been created, whether through consensual relationships or through rape. A small portion of Dominicans who’ve been in the country for generations are of partial or full Haitian ancestry.


Further down it mentions that Haitians are 7.4% of the population - but that stat likely ignores those that are decedants of Haitians that have been there for decades.

More:

Before 2010, the Constitution of the Dominican Republic generally granted citizenship to anyone born in the country, except children of diplomats and persons “in transit”.[27] The 2010 constitution was amended to define all undocumented residents as “in transit”.[27] On September 23, 2013, the Dominican Republic Constitutional Court issued a ruling that retroactively applied this definition to 1929,[28] the year Haiti and the Dominican Republic formalized the border.[29][30] The decision stripped Dominican citizenship from about 210,000 people who were born in the Dominican Republic after 1929 but are descended from undocumented immigrants from Haiti.[29] Many of the Dominican Republic-born do not have Haitian citizenship and have never been to Haiti;[31] the decision rendered them at least temporarily stateless.[27][28][32] Some Haitians began leaving voluntarily or in response to ethnic violence.[33][34][35] The government set a deadline of June 17, 2015[36][37] for affected people to leave the Dominican Republic, as nighttime “bandits” threatened Haitians with violence and deportation;[38] by August 2015 “hundreds” had been deported.[39]

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And Singapore, and Hong Kong, and a few other places. That’s because human brains are also a natural resource.

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Finland has a great abundance of rocks lacking valuable ores, pine trees that do not bear fruit, and seashores. It lives by thoroughly educated humans, hard work, and deeply ingrained modesty of needs mixed with formidable work habits.

david fb

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Hi MHOHLER. Looks like you’re new around here. Welcome.

There are a couple of ground rules at TMF and on this Macro Economic Trends and Risks board. One of the most important is: No Partisan Politics.

I’ll be the first to admit that this particular policy isn’t always consistently applied. Political posts don’t always get called out or removed.

In a roundabout response to the above, the world is a complicated and nuanced place. Putting blame on “progressive” policies without discussing the pros and cons of those policies isn’t going to get you very far. And going too far down that path can run afoul of the no politics rules.

Step up your game and you’ll find this to be a decent place to improve and refine your thinking. Spew partisan tripe and you’ll be privately laughed at and potentially banned.

–Peter

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You know, like Brazil is doing. In 2022 police killed over 6,000 people to “get rid of gangs”.

It’s going well. Last week, they only killed 45.

“Get rid of the gangs”

Visualize a jeep and half a dozen soldiers on every corner. Will gangs with guns disappear or will they fight it out. Will honest law abiding citizen feel safe in their homes and get on with their daily lives?

Or will there be civil war to see which gang dominates.

Civilization is possible. And i think likely!!

Mr Henry is currently stranded in Puerto Rico after being prevented by armed gangs from returning home…He has not been allowed back into Haiti after leaving in late January for visits to Guyana and Kenya, where he signed a deal on the deployment of an international security force to help tackle violence.

Mr Henry had led the country on a supposedly interim basis since July 2021, following former President Jovenel Moïse’s assassination, but had repeatedly postponed elections - saying security had to be restored first. Many Haitians questioned the length of his unelected governance and Mr Henry’s resignation had been one of the key demands of the heavily armed gangs that have recently tighten their grip on the capital, Port-au-Prince.

These gangs have attacked the main prison to help thousands of inmates escape, as well as targeting police stations, the capital’s international airport and its port. Port-au-Prince and the surrounding region is under a month-long state of emergency, while a curfew has been extended…

There are now questions over what will happen to the 1,000-strong UN-backed security force Kenya is expected to lead in Haiti to try and restore order there. The top civil servant in Kenya’s foreign affairs ministry has told the BBC that its deployment of police to Haiti has been put on hold following Mr Henry’s resignation.

DB2

They walked that back today (I heard it on NPR but this link supports such too):

Was he really “prevented”, or was it a matter of he didn’t want to go back? Stay in US owned PR, and possibly enjoy the money he looted from Haiti, or go back, be tried, and executed?

Steve

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