Home ownership vs. renting

We were in broadcasting for 30+ years, an industry where you typically move or change jobs every 3-5 years, and we did. We made $100k on one move, broke even on one, and kept the Boston condo as a rental for 25 years and let the tenants pay off the mortgage and then sold it for $1M.

Our criteria was pretty simple, buy in a good school district even though we didn’t have children. Then we came to Tennessee and stayed in the same house for 20 years and it barely kept up with inflation. We moved down the street, and with major improvements the value has doubled.

As in all things, “it depends.” I don’t think you can make a blanket statement like “this can only apply…”

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After reading the responses, and using the biases inherent in me, it seems like this isn’t as much a financial decision as a lifestyle decision.

I grew up in a single home (with a two year diversion to a temporary location in a different state.) My wife had a similar experience, with a single change of location in her early teens. That is the life we knew, and the life we wanted for our family.

Yes, there were apartments early in our marriage, but within about 5 years I had settled in to a career and we bought a condo. A couple years after that, I got the itch to go out on my own, so we sold the condo (with the gain in value covering our selling costs, so we got our cash back) and moved north and rented again.

That failed pretty quickly (about 6 months), so we moved back to the “home” area, rebuilding savings and eventually buying the home I still occupy today - almost 30 years later.

By settling down in one place, we achieved our goal of providing a stable home for our son.

As a side note, my parents still occupy the house I grew up in. And at this point, they are there for the duration. My wife’s parents stayed in that home until several years after her mother died, when her father remarried and moved into his new wife’s home, finally selling that house. My siblings also live near by - all of us living within 10 miles or so of our childhood home, so I have deep roots in this place.

One financial thing I’ve seen touched on only briefly - with home ownership and a fixed mortgage, your monthly payments (for principal and interest) don’t change with inflation. So if you stay put, a large part of your housing expense is fixed for as long as you remain there. Yes, taxes and insurance will increase over time, but you do get a material protection from inflation. And that P&I cost can be decreased over time if you refinance when rates drop lower than your current mortgage - or just to reset your amortization to a longer time frame.

I’d also point out that it pays to learn to do as much home maintenance as you can yourself. Twisting screws, hammering nails, and painting go a long way to keeping minor repair and maintenance costs in check, particularly in the younger years. I learned those skills from my father (and a bit from my father-in-law as well, since his skills were somewhat different from my father’s). With the internet available today, almost all of basic home repair and maintenance can be learned on line, so you don’t even need the pedigree of a parent or similar tutor - just the willingness to learn.

–Peter

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Don’t a fair number of people who relocate for a new job manage to negotiate a relocation package that covers the bulk of those costs? They were pretty standard not that long ago. Have they fallen out of favor recently?

As an income tax practitioner, I saw a lot of them over the years, but I’m not seeing as many lately. That could be because my client base is aging (along with me), so I don’t have as many early and mid career people who usually managed to get a relocation package.

–Peter

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I wanted to add a PS, and forgot.

While thinking about that condo, I looked it up on Zillow. Turns out it sold not quite a year ago, and there were still pictures of the interior available. Quite a trip down memory lane, seeing that place again.

I also noted that it had significantly less appreciation than my single family residence. I’m sure that partially due to the overhead of an HOA. (Actually two HOAs - there’s a master association that roughly replaces a city government, since it is in an unincoporated area of the county.)

Which is another bit of advice. If you’re buying for financial benefit, avoid HOAs. They are part of the “skim” that intercst mentions every once in a while. :laughing: You’re going to pay for a management company that then hires out every common area repair or maintenance job to their contractor buddies at top dollar.

Of course, if you want the lifestyle that comes with everyone in your neighborhood sticking their nose in everyone’s business, that’s fine. But it does come at a cost.

–Peter

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Oh, people get lucky all the time. Get transferred to Boston or to San Diego at the right time. But lots and lots of people get transferred to Kokomo, IN or Cleveland, IL or Detroit, MI and see minimal or no house appreciation for the 3-5 years, AND still have to pay some of the closing costs. And other people get lucky in that they can keep the old house and still afford a second one. But that doesn’t include most people, most people have to sell their house to buy another one.

Yes, I should have worded it better. On average, it won’t apply to people who move a lot, mainly because of the transfer costs involved. Obviously there are lots of exceptions.

Heck, I forgot to mention above that my one and only house purchase was also part of a corporate relocation, so the company paid most of the closing costs. That was really nice (and it was surprising because I had no idea at the time what exactly they would pay). I recall that I paid the mortgage costs other than the mortgage recording fee which they paid, and I paid for the inspection. They paid the realtor (and she got paid something despite the fact that in the end she didn’t find the home for us, we found it on our own). They paid the attorney. They paid for the deed recording fee. And they paid for assorted other things that I can’t quite recall.

I don’t know what is “standard” anymore, but even when it was popular, relocation “packages” were pretty much reserved for middle-to-upper white-collar workers, usually managers of some sort. The vast majority of employees generally wouldn’t be offered a “package”. Some might be offered “moving assistance” if the move was required by the company, but quite often the company is making the move and also wanting to reduce headcount somewhat, so it’s also a way to encourage people to leave the company.

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Interesting. I notice people use “average” to make a point but then counter a pretty bloomin’ obvious point by quickly substituting personal, specific, even peculiar individual examples.

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Well, the answer to that is plain to see.

Everyone on METAR is above average!

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We owned a nice house in a nice Chicago suburb for 33 years. The price of the house doubled but so did inflation.

DB2

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There used to be a guy here named @mishedlo who was in the same boat. I think he finally moved out a few years ago and headed to Utah. He wasn’t only concerned about his home price declining, he was also concerned about the additional taxes he would have to pay over the coming years so Chicago/IL could make good on the [lucrative] promises made to their civil servants.

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As they say, great minds think alike. My wife and I are also Illinois refugees. We moved to Wisconsin.

Reported state funding ratio (total assets/total liability):

Illinois    56%
Wisconsin  106%

DB2

Pretty much sums it all up.

I think that if one is responsible and intelligent about preparing for retirement it doesn’t really matter whether one rents or owns. Problem is that a lot of Americans aren’t. So for those who routinely carry credit card debt, buy a new iphone every couple of years, and subscribe to a dozen cable services it is probably best to own a home in order to build up “housing wealth”.

For many Americans, the house is their primary retirement asset. Almost their only retirement asset. In fact, racial disparities in home ownership is responsible for similar disparities in retirement security.

“… 73% of white families owned their homes, with the average net housing wealth (after deducting unpaid mortgage balances) of about $216,000. In contrast, just 45% of Black families owned a home, with an average net housing wealth of only $94,400, or less than half that of the average white family.” https://knowledge.wharton.upenn.edu/article/closing-the-racial-wealth-gap-in-retirement-preparedness/

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Over the last 40 years my personal experience has been that my homes have appreciated in value, but my stocks have consistently appreciated at a higher rate. Even our present home which we bought for $430,000 and has appreciated to a value of about.570,000 five years later according to Zillow and also according to the taxing authority. My ETFs, and also the broad market indices have done much better than - a return of about 60% for my equities vs a return of about 33% for my home.
Plus the cost of owning my home keeps going up - the taxing authority raises my assessment by $140,000 and then charges .92 percent on each additional assessed dollar, my insurance rates go up, my repair and maintenance fees go up, etc. The cost of owning my ETFs is about 3 basis points.
We love our home but it only makes good economic sense for us if most of our money is in stocks.

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This is why I don’t pay off my mortgage, which I could do easily at this point. Putting extra money into a slowly appreciating, illiquid asset doesn’t make a ton of sense. Any extra dollars I have go into the market.

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I know you understand this, but you are paying interest to the bank for the privilege of using their money. On a $200,000 loan at 4%, you will pay a total of $340,000, so it’s not as though you’re getting something “free”. If you are sure you will get the extra $140,000 plus enough extra to make it worthwhile, then it’s, uh, worthwhile.

Personally, I love knowing the only bills I have to pay are utilities, food, and once a year, property tax - and I own the damn place.

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Yeah, with you on this one. I paid off my home 10 years ago and saved a boatload of interest. I very much enjoy not having that payment, which I’ve been adding to savings and investments ever since.

To each his/her own, but I’m a fan of owning outright.

Pete

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I have been in my condo since 96. I refer to the place as “replacement parts in formation”: windows, garage door,front door, furnace (twice), central a/c, water heater*, bath tub, both bathroom sinks and faucets*, both toilet valves (main bath twice), garbage disposal, fridge, dish washer. kitchen sink faucet.

Looked at a two bedroom apartment a couple years ago: had a two car garage, but was also dark, noisy, and cost $3000/month, plus all utilities. When I get too old and feeble to keep fixing things myself, there may come a day when picking up the phone and saying “oh, maintenance” might be worth that kind of money, but I’m not there yet.

Steve

*saw a puddle under the water heater when in the basement running laundry yesterday. Dug out the paperwork. What is the warranty? 12 years. How old is it? 16 years. Got an old towel and dried up the puddle under the tank. Turned and put the towel in the washer with the load i was about to run. Turned back to the water heater, and there was a fresh drip on the floor. But the drip was from the drain valve. Put a metal cup under the valve.

*the lever that operates the pop-up in the bathroom sink decided to break last month. Retrieved the box the faucet kit came in from the basement. The box said “lifetime warranty”. Cool! Opened the box, and the original receipt was inside. Called Delta, gave them the model number off the box, and the date on the receipt, and they mailed out a new drain assembly, free.

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Sure, and that has to be part of the calculation. Let’s take the $200K mortgage at 4%, which gives us a monthly payment of $950. And let’s pay an extra $200/month. That will pay off the mortgage 8 years early and save $50k in interest.

Or lets invest the same $200/month in the S&P 500 which returns a modest 6%. After 22 years (when the mortgage would be paid off) we have an investment account balance of $110,000 and a mortgage balance of $80,000.

At that point you could pay off the mortgage in full if you like and still be dollars ahead. Now, if we are going to do the calculation properly, we have to take into account that if you paid off the mortgage you now have $950 extra a month to invest. So after 8 years with no mortgage at 6% you wind up with a total of $26,000. But in the non-payoff scenario you wind up with $200K at the end of the period, also with a paid off house. One of those is a lot better than the other. And this is a pretty conservative. The worst 30 years period the S&P has had is 8%.

You can slice and dice it all you want with all kinds of different assumptions, amounts of prepayment, rates of return, tax implications, etc (and I have), but assuming a sub 4% interest rate, not paying off the mortgage is not only financially better, it is a lot better.

There are a few other advantages as well. For example, liquid money is better than non-liquid money. And over time, inflation will make the $950/month payment feel like $450. So that future savings maybe isn’t as good as it first appears.

I agree you can’t put a value on the feeling of a paid off home, and I won’t. but you can put a value on a big brokerage account.

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I’ve tried to explain this to people many times over the decades, and most people just don’t get it (or don’t want to get it). It is MORE risky to prepay a mortgage than to not prepay a mortgage. That’s because if the family in the above example paid the extra $200 a month for 10 years, and then calamity (GFC, for example) hits and suddenly they both lose their jobs and have huge bills, the mortgage company still requires you to pay that $950 a month, and if you don’t pay it, they will begin foreclosure proceedings. They don’t care that you made 120 extra $200 payments over 10 years. On the other hand if you saved that $200 each month for the 10 years, even in lowly treasury bills or a money market, you will have at least $24,000 in the bank, and probably more with interest (or S&P500 returns or whatever). That $24,000 can cover your mortgage for more than 24 months, or it can cover a year’s worth of total expenses (living in a lean manner). And you won’t lose your house to foreclosure. Or you won’t have to do an emergency early withdrawal from your retirement funds. Or you won’t have to go hat in hand to your parents, in-laws, siblings for help. It is clearly less risky to keep the cash and not pay extra towards the mortgage. And not only less risky, but a financially better choice.

Now, after having saved the full payoff amount of the mortgage is a different story. If you still have a sufficient emergency fund, and you feel okay with it, maybe you can pay off the entire mortgage. It’s probably not the smart financial thing to do, but if it makes you feel good, go for it.

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I don’t disagree, but I wasn’t talking about paying down a mortgage. It’s paying off a mortgage. Getting rid of it entirely. There is no danger in that scenario.

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My first paragraph addressed the example given of someone who prepaid $200 a month for 10 years. And my second paragraph addresses the case of paying off the entire mortgage once you have enough cash to do so safely.

(I’ve learned the hard way to read entire posts before responding! And I still sometimes respond rapidly before reading it all.)

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