It's 1970 Stagflation

First off, thank you for the well-reasoned reply.

The bottom line is that the Fed is focused on 2% inflation because that’s what Congress told them to do in the law that created the Fed.

No that is not true, there is no mention of an inflation target by Congress in the Federal Reserve Bank Act of 1913 or in any amendments.
Congress has never set a mandatory inflation rate in any Bill.

In January 2012, the Federal Open Market Committee (FOMC) announced an explicit inflation target to the public for the first time in its history, stating, “the Committee judges that inflation at the rate of 2% as measured by the annual change in the price index
https://www.frbsf.org/economic-research/publications/economi…

The FOMC is not Congress. FOMC participants made explicit statements regarding their preferred inflation target numerous times from 2000 forward, but never announced an explicit inflation target until ten years ago. Discussions of explicit inflation targeting did not begin to appear in the FOMC meetings until around 1994 Not everyone agrees on a specific target, for instance Janet Yellen.
“I would be against an inflation target and I would associate myself entirely with the views of Governor [Janet] Yellen” (who had noted potential risks) Atlanta Fed President Robert Forrestal, during the first meeting of 1995. Yellen served as a member of the Board of Governors ’94-’97.
So when you say, “You’ll have to take that up with Congress…” it denotes something that you arbitrarily made up.
Even after Bernanke made the announcement he said “I don’t see anything magical about targeting 2% inflation.”
https://www.brookings.edu/blog/ben-bernanke/2015/04/15/monet…
In the years after the target was set at 2%, inflation ran under 2% and the Fed didn’t do enough to meet their stated target.

Many well-know economists agree that the 2% should be re-thought
David Messel
https://www.brookings.edu/research/alternatives-to-the-feds-…
Larry Summers
https://www.brookings.edu/research/why-the-fed-needs-a-new-m…
And as I pointed out, Robert Reich

At any rate, the recent inflation numbers approaching 10% are too high by pretty much any reasonable definition of “stable prices” and require the Fed to act.

And… I never said that the Fed should do nothing, but pushing the cost of borrowing for mortgages over 10% is where they are headed.
And… Inflation is already showing signs of easing
And… One of the Congressional mandates is Maximum Employment. The Fed stated that they are not going to use unemployment as a guide to the current steps in stemming inflation.

The Fed needs to fight inflation. That is their reason for existence.

No it is not, that is just what they’ve chosen as their reason. They could have just as well chosen a target of 2% unemployment.

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Maximum employment
Stable prices
moderate long-term interest rates

No that is not true, there is no mention of an inflation target by Congress in the Federal Reserve Bank Act of 1913 or in any amendments.
Congress has never set a mandatory inflation rate in any Bill.


A price target is not mandatory.

A price target with a specific percentage is ONLY SEEKING "stable prices".

The reason for a target is information for corporate planners. The FED is more effective if corporate planners know what to expect months in advance. Vague ideas or rough ideas instead of a target makes the FED actions less effective. Regardless of the open public discourse by the FED and news media.

Maximum employment
Stable prices
moderate long-term interest rates

No that is not true, there is no mention of an inflation target by Congress in the Federal Reserve Bank Act of 1913 or in any amendments.
Congress has never set a mandatory inflation rate in any Bill.


Your post paints a different picture to the question to which I was clarifying.

In this thread the assertion to which I was actually replying was…
The bottom line is that the Fed is focused on 2% inflation because that’s what Congress told them to do in the law that created the Fed.
In fact, there is no mention of an inflation target by Congress in the Federal Reserve Bank Act. It was the Federal Reserve that announced an explicit inflation target at 2% to the public for the first time in its history ten years ago.

The reason for a target is information for corporate planners.
Link?
So what were corporate planners doing for the past century w/o a specific inflation target set by the Federal Reserve?

Vague ideas or rough ideas instead of a target makes the FED actions less effective.

Link? Examples?

Link? Examples?

No go get an education in public finance! Stop wandering into topics you do not know about as the expert. You are the one making up claims and telling me, “I was clarifying”. You are not clarifying you are misinforming people.

There is a timing between FED’s direction and the corporate planners. If the FED shocks the planners the effect is minimal. If the FED informs the planners the effect is felt in full.

If you want to know more Google is your friend. Many universities also offer a course online in public finance for free.

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You’ve given me a lot to chew on. So it’s taken me a bit to cogitate and put together a cogent reply.

No that is not true, there is no mention of an inflation target by Congress in the Federal Reserve Bank Act of 1913 or in any amendments.
Congress has never set a mandatory inflation rate in any Bill.

Perhaps I stated things poorly. The Fed is tasked with maintaining stable prices. That is clearly in the Federal Reserve Act.

The Fed Governors chose, about a decade ago, to use 2% inflation as their benchmark for stable prices.

Like I said in my previous reply, you could argue for a different benchmark rate. But I don’t think you can argue that seeking price stability it outside of the Fed’s scope. So when you start saying that setting a benchmark for inflation is solely a made up process from the Fed, I have to disagree. Their mandate - one of their reasons for existence - it to maintain stable prices. Setting a benchmark seems to be well within the Fed’s mandate for stable prices. That is one way they are attempting to achieve stable prices.

There are advantages to stating a benchmark rate. Businesses can anticipate that as the inflation rate gets further away from that benchmark, the Fed will take actions to push inflation back towards that benchmark. That takes some uncertainty out of various markets, allowing market participants to predict what the Fed will do so that businesses are not surprised by the Fed’s actions.

Even after Bernanke made the announcement he said “I don’t see anything magical about targeting 2% inflation.”

Let’s read that statement in context.
Although we did not adopt one of these alternatives, I will say that I don’t see anything magical about targeting two percent inflation. My advocacy of inflation targets as an academic and Fed governor was based much more on the transparency and communication advantages of the approach and not as much on the specific choice of target. Bolding mine.

(Alternatives here were potential targets for price level or some function of GDP.)

Bernanke actually advocated for some kind of targets for that “stable prices” mandate. They provide for transparency to the Fed’s decision making and help communicate what the Fed is likely to do in various situations.

And that gets back to what I’ve said a couple of times. If you don’t like the 2% target, argue for a different target. Or argue for a GDP target instead of an inflation target.

David Wessel, in the article you linked, gives a bit more background.
In 1996, Fed policymakers privately agreed that their target for inflation was 2 percent, but, at
Greenspan’s insistence, they didn’t tell anyone.

So the 2% target has been around for much longer than a decade.

He goes on to state:
In fact, inflation fell short of the Fed’s 2 percent target for much of the past decade.

Umm. So what? He was writing in 2018, about a decade after the 2008/2009 financial crisis. Starting about that time, the Fed lowered their overnight rate to roughly zero. At the beginning of 2008, the target rate stood at 3.5%. By the end of the year, it was at 0.25%, where it stayed for 7 full years! http://www.fedprimerate.com/fedfundsrate/federal_funds_rate_…

The Fed was stimulating the heck out of the economy and inflation was staying low. Going into negative overnight rate territory is getting into uncharted waters. It risks starting up a deflationary spiral, which hasn’t really happened since the Great Depression. Rather than take that unprecedented step, they took a different unprecedented step, lending money out for longer terms. They started buying US Treasury bonds of all different maturities, effectively giving the Federal government money to spend to stimulate the economy. While the Fed had never done this before in the modern era, at least the macroeconomic theory of creating and lending money was reasonably well understood. It should be inflationary. (And frankly, it was - in everything BUT consumer prices.)

So the Fed was doing all it dared do to keep out of deflation. I don’t think being a bit short of their target inflation rate is all that much of a problem, considering what they were doing to keep the inflation rate up.

However, the bulk of the article is not really a condemnation of an inflation target. It is merely questioning whether 2% inflation is the right target, and discussions of alternative potential targets. It is essentially a rehash of the discussions the Fed itself had back in the 1980s and 1990s before deciding on the current 2% inflation target.

In thinking about it, I don’t see where Wessel really considers the effect of the 40 years of steadily falling interest rates. At its high in 1981, the Fed Funds rate was at 20%. It fell off those highs fairly quickly, but still stood at 8.25% at the end of the 1980s. In the 1990s, it went as low as 3% during the 1991/1992 recession, but was back to the 5-6% range for the rest of the decade, ending 1999 at 5.5%. We last saw 6% in January 2001. The last 5% rate was in 2007, and we were to effectively 0% at the end of 2008, staying there until the December 2015 meeting. Since then, there was a high at 2.5% during the first half of 2019, with a trip back to zero for Covid and then back up to 2.5% today.

Wessel’s argument for a higher inflation target seems to stem from his belief that the “neutral” interest rate (the nominal rate minus inflation) has fallen to 2% or less. He even has the audacity to toss out a strawman rate of 3%, citing a paper where the highest mentioned neutral rate was 2%.

Putting that aside, his argument is that because the neutral interest rate is more like 1%, the Fed’s target inflation rate should be more like 4%. That gives the Fed more room to drop interest rates during a recession before hitting the zero bound.

Personally, I think the long bull market in bonds (bond values increasing while interest rates fall) is disguising the natural interest rate. So many people (read Baby Boomers) have been putting so much money away for retirement, that they’ve bid down the returns on bonds. Once that trend starts to reverse - which will happen over the next decade or less as Boomers start dying off in big numbers - less money will be available for lending and the neutral interest rate will get back to the 2.0 - 2.5% range where I think it lies. With a 2% inflation target on top of the neutral interest rates, that puts nominal rates in the 4.0 - 4.5% range. Since nominal rates of 5% are likely desirable to reduce the risk of running into the zero bound during recessions, perhaps an inflation target of 2.5% would make some sense. I can’t entirely disagree with that.

Larry Summers makes an argument for an even higher target of 4%. He combines that with a 1% neutral rate to get to a nominal 5% interest rate.

Let’s get to Reich. I assume you’re talking about this quote, and the brief article it came from:
The Fed is trying to douse a fire in the living room, when the forest is ablaze.

Yes, but I read it much differently from you. I read it as him calling for Congress and governments around the world to act, not as a condemnation of what the Fed is doing. The Fed is doing what they must, even though everyone - Fed governors included - knows it is not enough.

If that is NOT what he’s saying - if he’s saying that the Fed should stop raising interest rates - well, then Reich is wrong. At least from my point of view.

His suggestions include a windfall profits tax, price controls, antitrust enforcement, and general tax increases.

I lived through the windfall profits tax on oil and gas in the 1980s. It wasn’t effective then, and it won’t be now. The problem with oil and gas is a shortage - both then and now. Taxing profits won’t help produce more supply. All that will happen is that the price of oil and gas (and the products of refining them) will go up even further.

Price controls in the 1970s didn’t work to contain inflation. They reduced producers’ incentives to produce. But we want to INcrease their incentive to produce more. We learned that lesson - let’s not repeat that mistake.

Antitrust enforcement - I could get behind that. But I fail to see how it would impact inflation in time to do any good. Effective enforcement takes years, not months. It’s worth doing to help stave off the next bout of inflation.

Tax increases. I agree with them, but again, good luck. I’m enough of a realist to understand that there will not be any meaningful tax increases coming from this Congress. And if leadership of one or both houses change in the coming election, the odds only get worse.

And… I never said that the Fed should do nothing, but pushing the cost of borrowing for mortgages over 10% is where they are headed.

At least we agree that the Fed should be doing something. The cost of mortgages going over 10% is just fear mongering. They’re currently in the mid 5% range.

And… Inflation is already showing signs of easing

Which is why mortgages will not get up to the heights you fear.

And… One of the Congressional mandates is Maximum Employment. The Fed stated that they are not going to use unemployment as a guide to the current steps in stemming inflation.

That’s not exactly true. Here’s what the Fed did say: the Fed said in August 2020 that it would respond to “shortfalls of employment from its maximum level” rather than the previous “deviations from its maximum level.”
https://www.brookings.edu/blog/up-front/2022/02/23/how-does-…

In other words, they used to be concerned about exceptionally low unemployment as being inflationary. Now they are only going to look at low employment (or high unemployment) as something to worry about. If unemployment gets very low, they are going to respond to actual inflation, not the risk of inflation that low unemployment poses absent any actual inflation.

To summarize, I still think the Fed is doing exactly what they must do. Even if you want to argue for an inflation target of 4% and believe the neutral rate is 1%, that still means the Fed Funds rate should be 5%. And it’s at 2.5% today. So further Fed Funds rate increases are in order. We are still below the expected nominal rate needed to be neutral. And that means the current rate is still stimulating the economy. And when supply is constrained, stimulating the economy is only going to result in inflation, not actual economic growth.

–Peter

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The cost of mortgages going over 10% is just fear mongering. They’re currently in the mid 5% range.

>>>To summarize, I still think the Fed is doing exactly what they must do. Even if you want to argue for an inflation target of 4% and believe the neutral rate is 1%, that still means the Fed Funds rate should be 5%. And it’s at 2.5% today. So further Fed Funds rate increases are in order. We are still below the expected nominal rate needed to be neutral. And that means the current rate is still stimulating the economy. And when supply is constrained, stimulating the economy is only going to result in inflation, not actual economic growth.

Thanks for taking the time to reply, sorry for the long links. I thought the Summers presentation was thoughtful.

You mention that cost of mortgages going over 10% is a scare tactic, but you also point out, as Wendy did, The Fed will continue to increase the FFR to 5%. Currently at 2.5:
Freddie’s survey came out this morning showing a modest 0.11% increase from last week to 5.66% with 0.8 points upfront. That would equate to roughly 5.9% without any points based on the average lender’s buy down costs. Unfortunately, this is still way too low to capture today’s reality, which was 6.23% this morning. Dated Sept. 1st
https://www.mortgagenewsdaily.com/markets/mortgage-rates-090…

I don’t know where the 30yr mortgage is going for sure, they are certainly volatile. I think that another 2.5% increase (5%) by the Federal Reserve wouldn’t make 10% 30yr mortgage out of the question. You pointed out, “And… Inflation is already showing signs of easing which is why mortgages will not get up to the heights you fear.” Perhaps.

With a 2% inflation target on top of the neutral interest rates, that puts nominal rates in the 4.0 - 4.5% range. Since nominal rates of 5% are likely desirable to reduce the risk of running into the zero bound during recessions, perhaps an inflation target of 2.5% would make some sense. I can’t entirely disagree with that.

Depends on how long it takes to get to 2%. This is a worldwide inflation. Today Norway reported YoY inflation for August at 12%. Energy again makes a significant contribution to overall inflation. https://www.cbs.nl/en-gb/news/2022/36/inflation-rate-up-to-1…

Going back to my point, if housing should slow down for a prolonged period, it will have a long term effect on the 25-35 year olds. And that is in part was Robert Reich is saying. I don’t have to worry about getting a 30yr mortgage, I assume neither to you. On the flip side, home prices will come down, but not everywhere; Boise? yes. San Francisco-San Jose? not much.

Thank again for the educational reply.

but you also point out, as Wendy did, The Fed will continue to increase the FFR to 5%. Currently at 2.5:

The clean logic for that is so the real FF rate is not negative. With inflation coming down in the following months 5% would be high. On the face of it a very clean approach but I doubt this is what the FED is out to achieve.

The real logic means we might not see the FED go anywhere near 5%. As the IRRs at corporations fall inflation will fall. The FF does not need to be positive for that to happen. It is already beginning to take effect.

Factory capacity in North America is expanding. While earlier in this year new factories were going up, there is always a push to focus on meeting demand at older factories. The measure in the more recent press is a slight contraction. But meeting demand can be done with less waste.

Demand in the economy is huge. The Millennials are a larger generation than the Baby Boomers. It is doubtful this recession carries a huge loss of jobs in it. There have been tech layoffs because goods and services sold in 2020 and 2021 saturated the markets. That will be wearing off as we move forward and demand for tech rises.

Equity markets have to hedge against falling profits. Economic demand is not going anywhere, it will stay high.

The issue with the monthly inflation reports is the year over year comparisons. As inflation levels off the percentage drops. Earlier in the year the y/y comparisons were brutal but that is passing.

We have deflationary cargo shipping, oil prices, and an appreciated dollar steadying other prices. The monthly reading is not relevant. Christmas sales are already quietly underway.

NG is the biggest sticking point…for all of about five months to come. If the ECB starts raising rates as well this will soften sooner.

The real logic means we might not see the FED go anywhere near 5%

I wasn’t predicting anything. I was responding to these statements:

I still think the Fed is doing exactly what they must do. Even if you want to argue for an inflation target of 4% and believe the neutral rate is 1%, that still means the Fed Funds rate should be 5%.
–Peter

And The Fed has barely begun to bring the fed funds rate to a neutral level, much less the restrictive level they want. These charts not showing anything like 2% inflation, no matter how they slice it. Be patient. It will take at least 3 to 6 months to see the outcome.
Wendy

I think that is a misinterpretation of the FF.

The FED is the lender of last resort for the FF. It is meant to be for overnight use by the banks to have enough of an reserve for lending purposes. It is not the carried rate in the marketplace so to speak.

The cost of mortgages going over 10% is just fear mongering. They’re currently in the mid 5% range.

30 year mortgage rate tops 6%, at around 6.33%

The federal funds rate is currently 2.25% to 2.50%. If the rate goes up to 5% as you predict, mortgage rates will definitely increase to 10%

https://www.mortgagenewsdaily.com/mortgage-rates

The federal funds rate is currently 2.25% to 2.50%.

That is widely expected to go up to 3% to 3.25% next week. That increase is already baked into current mortgage rates. That would imply a spread of about 3% between short term Fed Funds rate and 30 year mortgages, assuming that mortgage lenders do not think further increases are likely. I think this is a bad assumption, but I’ll go with it as it puts things in a bad case scenario. Not worst case, but almost certainly erring on the bad side.

At a 5% Fed funds rate and a 3% spread, that would put the mortgage rates at 8%, not 10%.

So what are the reasons the Fed would raise their rate significantly above 5%? The main one - perhaps the only one - would be inflation staying high. Plenty of folks are already chirping about month to month inflation being flat, using CPI rather than the PCE index, which is the one the fed watches. While the two don’t match, they do rhyme. I do think that inflation is moderating. It may not be gone, but it is coming down from the 8%-9% rate it was at a couple of months ago.

The current talk is that the Fed Funds rate should be 1%-2% over the inflation rate to be a neutral rate - neither stimulating nor contracting the economy. At the moment, we need a rate that is on the contracting side to keep inflation in check. Let’s use 3% over the inflation rate.

The last number I can find for inflation is 5.7% for the 12 months ending 8/31/22. That was down from 6.2% at the end of July. https://tradingeconomics.com/united-states/inflation-expecta… Using the numbers above, we should expect the Fed to raise their rate to something like 8.75% to control inflation. But they’re not even at 3% yet (although again, they will likely get there next week). So as the Fed raises rates to get from stimulating to neutral, the inflation rate is falling.

My understanding is that markets are expecting the Fed to get to 4% by the end of this year. And that will likely be paired with inflation continuing to fall as markets see that this Fed is serious about controlling inflation. So the reality is that mortgage rates are maybe 1% over the expected Fed rate by the end of the year. Not the 3% I figured above.

Personally, I would not be surprised to see the Fed push their rate to as much as 6% if inflation refuses to fall below 4%. And that might see mortgage rates go up to the 7%-8% range. But that’s about as far as I think the Fed will be willing to go unless inflation kicks in again. They’re trying not to overshoot on the high side with rates and start a more significant recession. A mild recession with some job losses is not going to make the Fed start dropping their rate unless inflation is close to their 2.5% target.

In short, this is not 1980 all over again. It can’t be because we haven’t gone through the intractable inflation of 1973-1979. And if this Fed can avoid the mistakes of their 73-79 predecessors, we won’t need to go through the interest rate spike of 80-82

So I still think that talk of 10% mortgage rates in the near future is fear mongering, absent indications that the Fed will need move the overnight rate above 7% or so.

–Peter

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They’re trying not to overshoot on the high side with rates and start a more significant recession. A mild recession with some job losses is not going to make the Fed start dropping their rate unless inflation is close to their 2.5% target.

I was surprised to see the inflation number last month remaining stubbornly high, and I would guess that might continue for a while. That said, I see the primary drivers of inflation as being close to, if not completely under control (insofar as that is possible) for a while.

The housing market has cooled, in some areas quite dramatically. They are talking about a rollback in housing pricing in parts of Canada, perhaps as severe as 25%. Flippers are getting out, and investors are exiting as interest rates make their properties unprofitable. In some cases their short term roll-overs are being called:

Toronto Home Prices Drop 16% in Historic Five-Month Slump
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-09-02/toronto-h…

Housing Prices Grind Lower in Canada, Aiding Fight Against Inflation
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-09-15/home-pric…

Gas prices are coming down all over the country, going on six or seven months now. There are wage increases to come as workers try to “catch up”, but it seems that should be a short lived phenomenon. Food prices may still be under pressure thanks o drought and the ever-never-ever-ending transport problems but hopefully that will get straightened out soon enough (of course I thought the same thing six months ago.)

As for the “stag” part, note that the US will likely outgrow China this year for the first time in almost 50 years.

US Growth Seen Outpacing China’s for First Time Since 1976
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-05-20/us-growth…

I’ll go out on a limb here and predict the inflation number starts to recede with the next report. At least I’m hoping, so the Fed doesn’t get scared and overreact and send us into a real recession.

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At a 5% Fed funds rate and a 3% spread, that would put the mortgage rates at 8%, not 10%.

The 10-year U.S. Treasury yield is usually key benchmark for mortgage rates; as mortgage-backed securities are in direct competition with Treasury instruments for bonds etc… MBS traditionally have been a safe haven for banks to rely on, but the past decade may have changed where banks/investors that purchase specific securities with a maturity of 10 years will trust.
The rate on a 30 year mortgage is based on what the market is willing to trust, not so much the Federal Reserve rate, and 10-year Treasury yield will tell you the direction fixed mortgages rates will go. So, you may be correct that 30yr mortgages rates will not exceed 8%.

In short, this is not 1980 all over again. It can’t be because we haven’t gone through the intractable inflation of 1973-1979. And if this Fed can avoid the mistakes of their 73-79 predecessors, we won’t need to go through the interest rate spike of 80-82

This is a completely different economy. The real question is if we see housing prices fall and banks lose faith in property value, i.e., 2009. Today there are safer maturities than MBSs. Thanks for taking the time, these boards will be gone, and I doubt if there will be anything useful here going forward.