Arweave is only a storage system. The academics developed it for all of man’s knowledge on just one node. A node has people with storage join it to get paid. The node system demands redundancies of the storage in the incentive program.
There is a one time payment for the storage based on a simple formula centered on the cost of storage for 200 years. But the formula does not properly factor in the deflationary realities of storage so the real duration of the storage will be over 600 years. People and institutions with storage excess with join the Arweave system over the years. If people drop out others are joining because they can sell excess storage space they have. The redundancies make this safe. People are paid more to store things a second time than a fifth time.
The KOII is a reward system for the public viewing the art.
In effect it is minted and then associated fully with the KOII. Bridged to to Eth payment is in Eth.
If the KOII I would hazard when bridged is on the Eth blockchain.
Interesting, but not the question.
An non-fungible token (NFT) is created by being minted on a blockchain. There are tons of off-chain programs and services that exist to help you do the minting or to sell the NFT - but each NFT has to be minted on a single blockchain.
What blockchain is your NFT going to be minted on?
Atomic was developed because Arweave does not create an NFT. The partners who created Atomic, one of them created Koii/KOII. Koii is necessary because you can not show or sell an Atomic NFT. Koii only is for showing the NFT. Atomic puts the contract and the digital file together on Arweave. When you use Koii to use Atomic to mint you get the job done and bridge through Koii.network to Eth.
Ar is to pay for Arweave
KOII is to pay for Koii.network
Atomic is free and mints it. There is no token for Atomic. KOII works with it. Atomic is the front end for the minting process. Koii.network bridges it to Eth. You are on the Ethereum blockchain. It is noted on Opensea you have used the Koii.network.
The process is more ironclad. Ironic. Because your complaints about IPFS are accurate without this.
Arweave is only a storage system. The academics developed it for all of man’s knowledge on just one node. A node has people with storage join it to get paid. The node system demands redundancies of the storage in the incentive program.
There is a one time payment for the storage based on a simple formula centered on the cost of storage for 200 years. But the formula does not properly factor in the deflationary realities of storage so the real duration of the storage will be over 600 years. People and institutions with storage excess with join the Arweave system over the years. If people drop out others are joining because they can sell excess storage space they have. The redundancies make this safe. People are paid more to store things a second time than a fifth time.
Okay - but that only works as long as people are willing to participate in the process, right? You need “miners,” who get paid in the Arweave native token (AR) to store files. You need people to pay for that storage by buying AR tokens, so that the AR tokens have value. It works great as long as people keep choosing to use Arweave for long-term storage.
But if the Arweave system falls out of favor with miners or customers (or both), then it will disappear. As long as people keep paying for its services, then it can keep offering those services. But if they lose their customers (ie. people stop choosing Arweave for storage), then the service will stop. If people don’t choose to join the Arweave system over the years, and instead the Arweave system loses people, then either my NFT purchase will disappear as well (if the token is written on the Arweave chain) or the asset it’s “tethered” to will disappear (if the token is written on a different chain).
Atomic was developed because Arweave does not create an NFT. The partners who created Atomic, one of them created Koii/KOII. Koii is necessary because you can not show or sell an Atomic NFT. Koii only is for showing the NFT. Atomic puts the contract and the digital file together on Arweave. When you use Koii to use Atomic to mint you get the job done and bridge through Koii.network to Eth.
If the NFT is on the Atomic blockchain, then you still have the tethering problem. The underlying asset - the Artwork - is stored on Arweave. The NFT is on Atomic, and so it can only “point” to the Artwork - the Artwork isn’t part of the actual NFT. From your description, Koii seems to function like any other third-party service for buying/selling NFT’s, like Mintable or Opensea - but I guess for buying/selling NFT’s on minted on Atomic, rather than Ethereum.
How is this not a “worst of both worlds” situation? There’s still a tethering issue, since what the buyer is buying - the NFT that gets transferred to their Atomic wallet - still doesn’t include the Artwork. And now the asset that they’re buying - the NFT itself - is on a much less-established blockchain.
Plus…are you sure about the above? My google skills are only average, but I can’t find anything that confirms that Atomic maintains its own blockchain. Their website describes the AtomicNFT as a token standard - not a token that runs natively on an Atomic blockchain.
Ar and KOII are not mined in the way BTC and Eth are mined.
AR is mined. It’s just based on proof of access, rather than proof of work. Rather than confirming the validity of changes to the blockchain in order to earn tokens, you provide access to stored data files.
But it’s the same process. The system only works as long as people are willing to offer their computing resources in exchange for the possibility of being paid in the native token - which native token only has value as long as people are willing to pay for the service being provided by the system.
There’s no way of knowing that Arweave is going to last 200 years (much less 600 years). It will only last as long as people keep choosing to use that service. If someone were to come along with a competing product that people preferred to Arweave (say it was faster or cheaper or was easier to use) and took away their users, then Arweave can disappear just like any other software service.
I used the word issued. I do not know what that means legally.
But issued as in why people would create some demand in the process. Because you were questioning why the process would continue on or peter out. People are involved with Ar and KOII for different reasons than BTC or Eth.
The bridge to Eth allows them to be sold for Eth. The bridge is specifically workable on Opensea.
I get that the contract is not a token.
You are in real estate. The contracts you write are not the property you see being bought and sold. You keep telling me that. Your contract ends up in two places, a filing cabinet and a digital file on a server.
I used the word issued. I do not know what that means legally.
But issued as in why people would create some demand in the process. Because you were questioning why the process would continue on or peter out. People are involved with Ar and KOII for different reasons than BTC or Eth
No doubt. But only a vanishingly small number of human ventures - of any kind - last for as long as 200 years. Much less a technology venture in a nascent field.
Not sure I’d be willing to bet that a file posted on Arweave is more or less likely to still be around in a decade or two than one hosted/posted on an NFT issuer’s website, TBH. Keeping the lights on for a basic website (like, say, the Yuga Labs website) costs a lot less than the total amount of computing power needed to run a decentralized storage system like Arweave.
The bridge to Eth allows them to be sold for Eth. The bridge is specifically workable on Opensea.
Ummmm…are you sure?
That’s not really consistent with how bridges work. Bridges are ways that tokens can be “moved” from one blockchain to another. I use quotes there, because the tokens don’t actually themselves move from one to another. So a bridge that moves Solana to Ethereum accepts SOL on the SOL blockchain and issues “wrapped” SOL as an Ethereum token, and vice-versa. The WSOL gets used on the Ethereum chain (or exchanged for ETH), and then can get “moved” back to the Solana chain by reversing that process. The bridges maintain big pools of liquidity in these fungible tokens on both sides of the bridge to accommodate these transactions (which is why they’re a popular target for attack).
But that can’t work for the types of NFT’s you’re describing, because they’re far too large to actually be written to the Ethereum network. The gas fees would be astronomical.
I have no doubt that KOII tokens are bridged to ETH. But that wouldn’t mean you could sell your NFT’s on the Ethereum blockchain - or any blockchain they’re not native to. They’d be way too big.
I didn’t say it was. That doesn’t mean it’s going to last for very long. Lots of non-profits disappear over time as well.
As far as I can tell, the Arweave system “matches” people who want to pay to store digital information with people who are willing to be paid to store digital information. Not in a one-to-one way, which is subject to trust and verification issues, but in a decentralized way. People storing information pay for the service in AR tokens, and the people who are mining (storing) get paid in AR tokens for their efforts in the same way that miners do in other blockchains. No one has to coordinate the system, and no one’s centrally in charge of it.
But that doesn’t mean it’s at all durable. If people stop turning to Arweave for their storage needs, then the miners will stop storing data on their computers. Without people continuing to buy AR to pay for storage, the value of the AR will collapse - and so the miners will have no incentive to keep providing the service.
Albaby
(I also very much doubt it’s a non-profit venture, given the number of pre-mined AR tokens).
I have no doubt that KOII tokens are bridged to ETH. But that wouldn’t mean you could sell your NFT’s on the Ethereum blockchain - or any blockchain they’re not native to. They’d be way too big.
Al,
I am hardly all that and a bag of chips knowledgeable on this topic. But I have read what Opensea wants. They want people to use the storage of either the IPFS or Arweave.
Yes I think as you do the bridge is KOII to ETH. That I can be paid in Eth on Opensea as Opensea seems to be indicating. It is rare in that it is only Opensea so far. Web3 is more developmental. It will change over time what will be done.
There is little room on a blockchain for much data. Making it usually a must to work with storage.
Again your property contracts reside generally unfixed or glued to the underlying property being sold. You physically do not bury the contract on the piece of land.
I told my dad of our conversation. His immediate response was you have the wrong lawyer. Meaning he needed information on the taxes his mother would owe when selling property in Dublin. His accountant kept talking about himself not giving him any answer. One day playing golf he was introduced to a tax accountant and he asked. That moment the answer was given, taxes owed in Ireland not America where she just arrived as an immigrant.
That I can be paid in Eth on Opensea as Opensea seems to be indicating.
Al,
Let’s put this another way. I know I can not be paid in KOII. KOII is not on an exchange yet. I get 5 free KOII. I need 200. I need my animations to garner views to earn more KOII. Opensea lets me sell the animations on their platform. Listing them for Eth.
Oh lord, yes. Please, do that. Not “another” lawyer, since I’m not your lawyer - but if you’re actually planning on spending any real effort on this as a business venture, speaking to a lawyer would be very advisable.
I know I’m not an expert on crypto. But these statements about crypto and NFT’s (not just yours, but the crypto enthusiasts in general) are so inconsistent with really core, first-year contracts law principles that I’m very curious to see why people think they’re true. Like trivially, the idea that code can be a contract, rather than just something that memorializes a contract (like a PDF of an agreement) or a means of executing a contract (the way a Fexex truck delivers products to you).
As to the Koii/Atomic/Arweave ecosystem, from what I’ve been able to glean you can’t mint the same type of NFT’s that you see for sale on all the main NFT sites (like Mintable or OpenSea). Those are tokens on the Ethereum blockchain, and you can use those sites to transfer ownership of the NFT’s. The Koii folks describe what you can set up on Arweave using the Atomic protocol as an NFT…but it appears that they’re not actually a token. It’s just the stuff you need in order to mint a token on a chain on which tokens can be minted - which I don’t think you can do on Arweave, apparently. Koii tries to monetize people doing stuff with their “NFT’s” other than selling them (displaying/viewing). I’m not sure they’re technically NFT’s, since they don’t appear to have the attributes of a token - but I’m sure that term isn’t formally defined anywhere, so they can probably call their product whatever they want.
Opensea lets me sell the animations on their platform. Listing them for Eth.
No, they don’t. They let you sell tokens that are tethered to the animations on their platform. The tokens aren’t the animations. You’re not selling animations - you’re selling tokens.
You see, it’s little imprecise statements like that can lead to some problems down the road. As mentioned in the other post, speaking to a lawyer about what you’re doing (if it’s more than just trying to hawk some files for pocket money) might be advisable.