It’s how the media (including social media) works nowadays. One outlet makes something up, with or without basic research. And then since it was published, they can all publish the same or similar stuff. It’s how information, correct or incorrect, gets disseminated far and wide. And there is no need to care about accuracy anymore … because all that matters is clicks and eyeballs. Nobody gets paid extra for accuracy (or truth for that matter).
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I am still waiting for the Apple TV that Steve Jobs promised us. I don’t expect an Apple Car will be for sale in my life time.
I am pretty sure people in North Carolina were saying the same thing about gas vehicles when all they had was horses. Look I can’t go more than 100 miles in a gas car before having to fill up but my horse will go forever on grass and you can find grass every where.
Andy
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Mike,
Is that myth rooted in the nickel cad batteries for hybrid cars? Those non Li batteries needed replacing.
In the CARB states the NiMH batteries in hybrids have a warranty of 150K miles. So it is possible that these may have to be replaced around 200K miles. But this is a relatively minor cost compared to the battery in a BEV.
Tesla batteries are designed to last 300K - 500K miles. Other brands are probably similar.
Mike
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Actually, [Joe Pesci: “Go on you can say it, they know”], No.
Gasoline was widely available almost instantly because kerosene was widely available because that’s how people fueled their lamps for lighting at night. It was in a barrel, just outside every hardware store, grocery store, or other place as people commonly stopped. It was kept in a barrel and you “pumped” out whatever you needed into your own container and went on your way. Stores just added a second barrel.
The first actual “gas station” is a different thing, those started appearing around 1905 in various configurations: stop on the street, drive-thru, full service (mechanic), etc. The Model T wouldn’t appear for another three years, so there weren’t a lot of petrol-using cars by that time anyway. But “gas” was widely available already.
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As I recall, initially gasoline was a waste byproduct of kerosene production often dumped in rivers. By a serendipitous coincidence, just as Edison and Westinghouse were putting Rockefeller out of business with electric lighting Ford put Rockefeller back in business with mass produced gasoline powered cars.
The Captain
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Mike,
I am talking about the earlier hybrid model batteries.
That’s true, but there were uses for gasoline prior to the automobile age. Henry Ford’s first job was selling gas generators to farmers, made by a company which was later absorbed by Westinghouse. As his successful automotive adventure was in the mid 1900’s decade, and he had at least one, perhaps two prior with the Dodge Brothers, I would guess that would put him up selling those generators in the late 1890’s or 1880’s?
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Leap1,
I was talking about the earlier hybrid models. These are the one using NiMH batteries and required by CARB rules to have a 150K mile warranty.
Mike
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Electricity has also been available almost instantly because every house and business has electrical outlets. It is just not conveniently located nor at the fast charging speeds we’d like.
http://www.autolife.umd.umich.edu/Environment/E_Casestudy/E_casestudy8.htm
In the early days of the automobile, travel required careful planning. Initially, gasoline had to be obtained at “bulk depots” located outside of the cities. Fuel was provided in cans or other containers, but ultimately wholesalers transported gasoline in horsedrawn tank trucks to commercial customers in towns for sale to motorists.
Fuel was widely available in convenient cans (probably a gallon size) from hardware stores so you could bring it home for your lamps. Just like EVs today…not the actual quantity and speed of refueling that you’d like.
Mike
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It could take almost 70,000 miles for an EV to be more eco-friendly than a petrol car
Here in the UK that represents about ten years of motoring for the average driver
After ten years the batteries will be close to needing replacing. This will cost more than the car is worth, so it probably won’t happen.
Volvo used to say 90,000 so it looks like things are improving. Perhaps in another twenty years things will look a lot better but until then I’m sticking with my SUV.
I don’t know what is included in Volvo’s figures but I bet that it doesn’t include the damage to the ecology of getting the lithium. A friend in the mining/minerals business tells me that it is far more damaging to the environment than oil extraction:
Why the Rush to Mine Lithium Could Dry Up the High Andes - Yale E360.
The market doesn’t believe you. I have a ten year old EV (model year 2013) which I bought used seven years ago. Today, the same 2013 EV with the same trim costs about 40% more than what I paid originally, or a CAGR of about 3.2%.
FWIW, I still have over 90% of the original capacity remaining, so I anticipate another ten years or so of useful battery life at which point things like the interior and shocks will be worn out. It appears that buyers are anticipating the same thing and bidding the price up.
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It could take 70,000 miles. But it could be much less. You left out this part of what Volvo found:
It takes about 30,000 miles to break even with the XC40 if electricity is produced through wind power, about 48,000 miles on the average EU mix, or almost 70,000 miles on the global mix.
Even more important is that where does the incremental electricity generation come from as more and more people buy EVs. Are we building additional clean source or dirty sources of electricity?
And it could also take just 13,500 miles to break even according to Reuters who used the Argonne Natl Labs model. Details below.
Also, note that gas cars aren’t (significantly) getting any cleaner and never will over the life of a newly purchased gas car. But EVs can get cleaner over their lifetime based on the energy mix of the grid.
The model was developed by the Argonne National Laboratory in Chicago and includes thousands of parameters from the type metals in an electric vehicle (EV) battery to the amount of aluminium or plastic in a car.
Argonne’s Greenhouse Gases, Regulated Emissions and Energy Use in Technologies (GREET) model is now being used with other tools to help shape policy at the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) and the California Air Resources Board, the two main regulators of vehicle emissions in the United States.
Mike
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Here’s a thought at this point even though battery technologies are and must improve the speed of charging a battery is even more critical both commercially and technically. We can get over 400 miles per charge already. The commercial success of a faster charge will finance better battery capacity more than better battery capacity itself can in the market place.
Very True. In fact I think they have too much acceleration power.
The argument is that the power can get one out of trouble. I think one is more likely to get in trouble with all that power; especially young drivers as I recall my days with a 1967 Impala with a 300 hp 327 & 4 barrel carburetor. There was a 427 cubic inch 425 hp option available at the time. I never caused or had an accidents while racing around on the public roadways. But as I look back; I should of had my drivers license yanked and been required to be benched for a year to modify my behavior. And it might of taken more than one application to make an impact upon me.
Fuddy duddy tjscott0 believes EVs should be fitted with governors to limit the power. The same standard should apply to IC vehicles on public roads too.
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I’ll agree 100% with that statement. And I’ve been fed up for years with the push for even faster EV’s rather than longer range (but they seem to go hand-in-hand, with the larger battery allowing a more powerful electric motor).
The latest Dodge’s have stupid amounts of power. Corvettes as well. I have a friend who used to instruct at track events until 3-4 years back. The type of thing that attracted rich people with fast Porsches, Aston’s and such and with zero skill at high performance driving. He got tired of rich people trying to kill him because they refused to listen to instructions.
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There are options, if needed, inlaw’s Hayabusa, 200 HP had 3 levels, a chance to learn before going all out… Likely the top end rigs have ismilar things in software as well… I’ve resisted driving his Super Snake 750 HP GT500, mostly because I couldn’t afford replacing it if I lost it… But the Hayabusa, his leathers fit me great, but when I went to get aboard, I had a nasty cramp, pegs weren’t set up for me, I took that as a sign, got off, didn’t try again… I know how much trouble I got in, and how many tickets I got on my earlier motorcycles, so easy to twist that throttle a bit more, then a bit more…Relying on every part to hold together…
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The ICE looks big and bad but is wimpy. We do not need to do that.
You never saw me racing on the public roadways circa 1970-75
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