# NFT’s are not in the toilet! **URL:** \ **Category:** Macro Economic Trends and Risks\ **Created:** [October 21, 2022, 9:39pm UTC](https://discussion.fool.com/t/nft-s-are-not-in-the-toilet/78739 "2022-10-21T21:39:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Leap1](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/motleyfoolfree/user_avatar/discussion.fool.com/leap1/32/72176_2.png) [@Leap1](https://discussion.fool.com/u/Leap1)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2022, 5:32pm UTC](https://discussion.fool.com/t/nft-s-are-not-in-the-toilet/78739/21 "2022-10-23T17:32:30Z")
Opensea the largest platform has reversed transactions to stop theft or scamming. The FBI has tracked down ransomware attacks to recoup the crypto payments. This is in its infancy. Grant you that of course. If a house is exchanged or another asset is exchanged as an NFT using Eth to get lower financing costs, then the contract for the sale that is separate from the NFT will detail how the guarantee or warrantee runs. The NFT and Cryptocurrency would never do that just as the USD or piece of art on your wall would never do that. In small finance in DeFi if it substitutes eventually for credit cards the terms would be spelled out as well with this in mind. ---
**Author:** ![buynholdisdead](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/motleyfoolfree/user_avatar/discussion.fool.com/buynholdisdead/32/12874_2.png) [@buynholdisdead](https://discussion.fool.com/u/buynholdisdead)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2022, 7:36pm UTC](https://discussion.fool.com/t/nft-s-are-not-in-the-toilet/78739/22 "2022-10-23T19:36:54Z")
> [@Leap1](#): > > It is just game theory. It worked. Ok if it’s game theory and that is what they were using the bored ape for I can understand that, but in Web3 the game makers are going to give away NFT’s for free. Once that happens I think very few NFT’s will be worth anything. Some yes but not many. In fact Gabe Leydon, a Web3 game creator said that NFT’s do not have any intrinsic value of zero and that is why he is going to give them away in his game. Now could some of them gain value, Yes, because after all the Magical game did have cards that were worth money. On a side note here is some interesting information, Thanks for bringing this up Leap1 it all is interesting. [https://medium.com/javarevisited/10-free-nft-non-fungible-tokens-metaverse-and-web3-0-courses-for-beginners-421b1d6ca263](https://medium.com/javarevisited/10-free-nft-non-fungible-tokens-metaverse-and-web3-0-courses-for-beginners-421b1d6ca263) Andy ---
**Author:** ![Leap1](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/motleyfoolfree/user_avatar/discussion.fool.com/leap1/32/72176_2.png) [@Leap1](https://discussion.fool.com/u/Leap1)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2022, 8:45pm UTC](https://discussion.fool.com/t/nft-s-are-not-in-the-toilet/78739/23 "2022-10-23T20:45:20Z")
I am not a full believer in Web3. Too many things can be called Web3. Most of the token systems to power it will fail. The different metaverse and game projects will often fail. People will probably lose a lot of money. The artists now are often barking up the wrong tree never mind Web3. Not everything sells. Web3 with a side rail or whatever you want to call it about tokens other than NFTs and Eth are asking for failure. The thing that matters towards what you said, art that can succeed and NFTs wont go away. That is like saying Microsoft will not be important because of the dotcom craze as if we are in 1998. That is not how it works out. ---
**Author:** ![albaby1](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/motleyfoolfree/user_avatar/discussion.fool.com/albaby1/32/12772_2.png) [@albaby1](https://discussion.fool.com/u/albaby1)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2022, 10:02pm UTC](https://discussion.fool.com/t/nft-s-are-not-in-the-toilet/78739/24 "2022-10-23T22:02:41Z")
> [@buynholdisdead](#): > > No Sykes they are putting all the legacy sources on blockchain also. That is the whole point of it. Everything about the property, every lawsuit, every sale, every bankruptcy, all of it. It will be sitting on the blockchain and when you go to buy the property you will be able to review it yourself. I can see this making a sale much more faster and easier. Is any of that true? I mean, I suppose there might be a company out there that **proposes** doing that. But I kind of doubt it, because it would be ridiculously expensive to try it. It’s not cheap to put information on the blockchain, and the amount of information necessary to provide reviewable **title** to real property would be astronomically large. And completely duplicative of the current system of record title we have right now. Plus, there’s no way that such a system could work under current laws. Title works because most (all?) states have laws that **require** certain things be recorded in the public records of the jurisdiction, or have laws that provide that these things have to be recorded in the public records in order to be enforceable. There’s no such laws for blockchain. So if there’s a sale or a bankruptcy or a judgment that affects a piece of real estate, there’s no reason that the parties to that proceeding would “record” it on the blockchain - and thus no guarantee that one could get a complete history of a property by looking at the blockchain. Note that the article cited upthread doesn’t involve title at all. They didn’t sell the real estate directly; they sold the company that owned the real estate. Almost the entirety of the transaction took place off-chain (apart from sending the money through purchasing an NFT rather than an ordinary wire, which is rather pointless). ---
**Author:** ![Leap1](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/motleyfoolfree/user_avatar/discussion.fool.com/leap1/32/72176_2.png) [@Leap1](https://discussion.fool.com/u/Leap1)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2022, 10:43pm UTC](https://discussion.fool.com/t/nft-s-are-not-in-the-toilet/78739/25 "2022-10-23T22:43:05Z")
Al, There is more than one way to put it on “a” blockchain. Arweave has or will have the Library of Congress and other country’s libraries along with all the data on the planet eventually. But it goes back to issuing another token. I do not like that system for many things. Arweave will be okay probably but most others wont. ---
**Author:** ![syke6](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/motleyfoolfree/user_avatar/discussion.fool.com/syke6/32/26265_2.png) [@syke6](https://discussion.fool.com/u/syke6)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2022, 12:11am UTC](https://discussion.fool.com/t/nft-s-are-not-in-the-toilet/78739/26 "2022-10-24T00:11:12Z")
> [@buynholdisdead](#): > > No Sykes they are putting all the legacy sources on blockchain also. That is the whole point of it. Everything about the property, every lawsuit, every sale, every bankruptcy, all of it. It will be sitting on the blockchain and when you go to buy the property you will be able to review it yourself. I can see this making a sale much more faster and easier. Edit: Albaby said it better than me. ---
**Author:** ![Leap1](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/motleyfoolfree/user_avatar/discussion.fool.com/leap1/32/72176_2.png) [@Leap1](https://discussion.fool.com/u/Leap1)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2022, 12:35am UTC](https://discussion.fool.com/t/nft-s-are-not-in-the-toilet/78739/27 "2022-10-24T00:35:06Z")
syke and Al, The different blockchains are bridging more and more. There are information blockchains that work with Eth. Eventually what Andy is saying will be totally true. The Eth/NFT transaction is just to bring down the costs of transactions since gas is not a percentage of the amount if the transaction making larger transaction costs very low. ---
**Author:** ![buynholdisdead](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/motleyfoolfree/user_avatar/discussion.fool.com/buynholdisdead/32/12874_2.png) [@buynholdisdead](https://discussion.fool.com/u/buynholdisdead)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2022, 1:30am UTC](https://discussion.fool.com/t/nft-s-are-not-in-the-toilet/78739/28 "2022-10-24T01:30:27Z")
> [@albaby1](#): > > I mean, I suppose there might be a company out there that **proposes** doing that. But I kind of doubt it, because it would be ridiculously expensive to try it. It’s not cheap to put information on the blockchain, and the amount of information necessary to provide reviewable **title** to real property would be astronomically large. And completely duplicative of the current system of record title we have right now. It is in replacement of the current system. It is not done to every property right now but only the ones that are being sold as an NFT. They project that this is how all properties will be sold in the future, if I understand the Forbes article correctly. As far as expensive, that is the whole point of the blockchain. It makes the moving of money and the making of contracts much cheaper than it is now. > [@albaby1](#): > > Plus, there’s no way that such a system could work under current laws. Title works because most (all?) states have laws that **require** certain things be recorded in the public records of the jurisdiction, or have laws that provide that these things have to be recorded in the public records in order to be enforceable. There’s no such laws for blockchain. So if there’s a sale or a bankruptcy or a judgment that affects a piece of real estate, there’s no reason that the parties to that proceeding would “record” it on the blockchain - and thus no guarantee that one could get a complete history of a property by looking at the blockchain. That is completely wrong, it is an asset and in court, in bankruptcy, you have to claim all your assets. I mean you could try to not claim it but if you don’t they put you in jail for that. When someone buys your NFT it will have to be recorded on the blockchain, because it’s an NFT. Now what would happen if you didn’t sell it as an NFT and someone paid cash for it. That might be interesting to see. > **[Cryptocurrency and Bankruptcy](https://freemanlaw.com/cryptocurrency-and-bankruptcy/)** > > More and more frequently, cryptocurrency holdings are showing up in the bankruptcy schedules of Debtors. A number of issues can arise in this context, including whether cryptocurrency is included... > **[Part II: How and Why Should I Keep Track of my NFT Transactions? | Gordon...](https://www.gfrlaw.com/what-we-do/insights/part-ii-how-and-why-should-i-keep-track-my-nft-transactions)** > > As with any investment, you should keep a record of when you create, purchase and sell non-fungible tokens (NFTs), and how much was paid or received for it. > [@albaby1](#): > > Note that the article cited upthread doesn’t involve title at all. They didn’t sell the real estate directly; they sold the company that owned the real estate. Almost the entirety of the transaction took place off-chain (apart from sending the money through purchasing an NFT rather than an ordinary wire, which is rather pointless). The Forbes article? I thought it laid it out very well. Andy ---
**Author:** ![buynholdisdead](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/motleyfoolfree/user_avatar/discussion.fool.com/buynholdisdead/32/12874_2.png) [@buynholdisdead](https://discussion.fool.com/u/buynholdisdead)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2022, 1:35am UTC](https://discussion.fool.com/t/nft-s-are-not-in-the-toilet/78739/29 "2022-10-24T01:35:44Z")
> [@Leap1](#): > > I am not a full believer in Web3. Too many things can be called Web3. Most of the token systems to power it will fail. > [@Leap1](#): > > The artists now are often barking up the wrong tree never mind Web3. Not everything sells. LOL I really like what you just said, that is exactly the same argument everyone has been giving you. So let’s say I say potatoe are you going to say Potato? > [@Leap1](#): > > The thing that matters towards what you said, art that can succeed and NFTs wont go away. That is like saying Microsoft will not be important because of the dotcom craze as if we are in 1998. That is not how it works out. Ok I read that three times and it still doesn’t make any sense. Do you think you could rephrase that? Andy ---
**Author:** ![Leap1](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/motleyfoolfree/user_avatar/discussion.fool.com/leap1/32/72176_2.png) [@Leap1](https://discussion.fool.com/u/Leap1)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2022, 1:51am UTC](https://discussion.fool.com/t/nft-s-are-not-in-the-toilet/78739/30 "2022-10-24T01:51:11Z")
Sure Andy, Around 1910 there were hundreds of auto manufacturers in the US. Now China has 400 EV manufacturers. The big few at the end of the day will survive. NFTs and Eth will more than survive and prosper. The Web3 will also have a few companies do extremely well. But many of them won’t make it. In 1998 Microsoft was huge, the dotcoms would bust later, but Amazon became bigger. Web3 has very high risk companies involved. Moveover we have seen success with BAYC, but the success in using AI for cards is dropping and dropping. Repeating someone else’s success comes with diminishing returns. Meaning Web3 often has several startups for the same ideas. More metaverse - game startups will fail. It is not a given that all of it or even most of them survives. ---
**Author:** ![buynholdisdead](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/motleyfoolfree/user_avatar/discussion.fool.com/buynholdisdead/32/12874_2.png) [@buynholdisdead](https://discussion.fool.com/u/buynholdisdead)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2022, 2:56am UTC](https://discussion.fool.com/t/nft-s-are-not-in-the-toilet/78739/31 "2022-10-24T02:56:45Z")
Ok Albaby1, I see what you are saying. While the technology hasn’t caught up to the NFT’s yet, that is the direction they are going. “What’s interesting right now is it’s a case where laws haven’t caught up with the technology,” Mr. Haber said. “Laws across the [U.S.], and state municipalities, would have to change how deeds get recorded. Right now, you go to the county clerk’s office, you don’t go to the blockchain.” [https://www.mansionglobal.com/articles/when-purchasing-a-real-estate-nft-what-are-you-really-buying-01639137564](https://www.mansionglobal.com/articles/when-purchasing-a-real-estate-nft-what-are-you-really-buying-01639137564) So I guess what we have to do is see if this develops. ---
**Author:** ![buynholdisdead](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/motleyfoolfree/user_avatar/discussion.fool.com/buynholdisdead/32/12874_2.png) [@buynholdisdead](https://discussion.fool.com/u/buynholdisdead)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2022, 3:04am UTC](https://discussion.fool.com/t/nft-s-are-not-in-the-toilet/78739/32 "2022-10-24T03:04:18Z")
> [@Leap1](#): > > NFTs and Eth will more than survive and prosper. The Web3 will also have a few companies do extremely well. But many of them won’t make it. Right Leap1 some of them won’t make it but some of the game companiest and other companies developing on the Web3 will be huge. That is how every new technology is That’s how Capitalism works. But I would say the same can be said about NFT’s, especially when in Web3 they are giving them away. Very few NFT’s will be fine, the biggest majority will be zero. Andy Andy ---
**Author:** ![Leap1](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/motleyfoolfree/user_avatar/discussion.fool.com/leap1/32/72176_2.png) [@Leap1](https://discussion.fool.com/u/Leap1)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2022, 11:47am UTC](https://discussion.fool.com/t/nft-s-are-not-in-the-toilet/78739/33 "2022-10-24T11:47:31Z")
> [@buynholdisdead](#): > > when in Web3 they are giving them away The majority are at zero now. I have carefully looked. Most artists do not design for their market. Many artists copy the next guy. There are things that will continue to be big hits in the art world using NFTs. If you look at at the gallery world in NYC and London, the two major cities, there are 40k artists as of 2008 in both cities. There are some 35 major galleries in each city. Only 60 to 90 artists of the 40k in each city get picked up by the major galleries. In other words no matter how good the artists are they are not put forth as major artists. Further there are 4000 families that collect art on the very high end or investment grade art. Today that has changed. The people under 45 and particularly under 35 that would normally sign up to collect art from Christies or Gagosian Galleries are not signing up at all. These younger collectors are skipping the middleman and buying NFTs. A new class of high end collector has sprung up for NFTs because the gatekeepers are not in the mix. People with less money than the 4000 collecting families at the top but still collectors with considerable wealth. These new collectors number 30k to 40k. By definition they are shrewd investors in the business class. For the artists who can design to the meet the market that is well over 30k high end investors. Nothing like this has ever happened in the art world for the artists. Most artists are not designing well for this market. Many more artists are intimidated by this market. Btw, many of the Web3 projects want to pay the artists for their content being viewed. If artists are not paid in some manner the design quality wont be there longer term. The metaverses of Web3 where they give things away are a locked world of gamers very often on a particular game platform. The fine art world is investor grade art when an artist approaches it right. It is not an either or at all. ---
**Author:** ![albaby1](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/motleyfoolfree/user_avatar/discussion.fool.com/albaby1/32/12772_2.png) [@albaby1](https://discussion.fool.com/u/albaby1)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2022, 12:56pm UTC](https://discussion.fool.com/t/nft-s-are-not-in-the-toilet/78739/34 "2022-10-24T12:56:22Z")
> [@buynholdisdead](#): > > It is in replacement of the current system. It is not done to every property right now but only the ones that are being sold as an NFT. They project that this is how all properties will be sold in the future, if I understand the Forbes article correctly. It can’t replace the current system **without** significantly changing the laws. It’s not something that private parties can do on their own. The key is to recognize that the **token** (the NFT) is not the same as the **asset** (the real-world object), at least for all assets that aren’t digital. The NFT of the house isn’t the same as the house. Which means that transferring ownership of the NFT doesn’t transfer ownership of the house. There **are** assets that have been completely tokenized. One prominent example would be bearer bonds. By law, whoever owns the token - the sheet of paper that is the bearer bond - is also the legal owner of the underlying monetary asset. So if you transfer the bearer bond to someone, you are inextricably and unavoidably transferring ownership of the asset itself. Which means that the ownership history of the token is the same as the ownership history of the asset. But that’s not true for privately created token systems, like NFT’s. Transferring the NFT of the house doesn’t automatically transfer ownership of the house. For example, suppose the owner of the house doesn’t pay their property taxes. The municipality will lien the house, and eventually foreclose on it - and then sell it off on the courthouse steps. Those events will be recorded in the public records, but they will **not** be recorded on the blockchain. The municipality has a lien on the house, not the NFT, after all. Reviewing the blockchain history of the NFT will not let you know if any off-chain events have affected the ownership of the underlying asset. I’m not sure this is a solvable problem for real estate, at least the way current blockchains are set up. You can set up a purchase and sale agreement to **add on** an NFT token in addition to all the traditional paperwork, but you can’t use an NFT to **replace** the traditional paperwork. Real estate is tokenized, but through the public records - and unless and until the law changes, private parties can’t change it on their own. ---
**Author:** ![Leap1](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/motleyfoolfree/user_avatar/discussion.fool.com/leap1/32/72176_2.png) [@Leap1](https://discussion.fool.com/u/Leap1)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2022, 3:36pm UTC](https://discussion.fool.com/t/nft-s-are-not-in-the-toilet/78739/35 "2022-10-24T15:36:38Z")
Al, All I am saying is the NFT is used to transfer the Eth to finance the deal. Since the gas to transfer a large amount of money is not decided as a percentage of the amount of the sale. If gas costs $120 to do the transfer a credit card for someone very wealthy would charge 2.9% roughly. ---
**Author:** ![albaby1](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/motleyfoolfree/user_avatar/discussion.fool.com/albaby1/32/12772_2.png) [@albaby1](https://discussion.fool.com/u/albaby1)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2022, 3:48pm UTC](https://discussion.fool.com/t/nft-s-are-not-in-the-toilet/78739/36 "2022-10-24T15:48:04Z")
> [@Leap1](#): > > All I am saying is the NFT is used to transfer the Eth to finance the deal. Even that limited thing, though, is a problem in search of a solution. It’s a relatively simple matter to arrange a wire transfer in connection with a real estate closing. It should cost you less than $50 or so to arrange it. We already have **very** efficient electronic banking when it comes to fulfilling those kinds of transactions. ---
**Author:** ![Leap1](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/motleyfoolfree/user_avatar/discussion.fool.com/leap1/32/72176_2.png) [@Leap1](https://discussion.fool.com/u/Leap1)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2022, 4:14pm UTC](https://discussion.fool.com/t/nft-s-are-not-in-the-toilet/78739/37 "2022-10-24T16:14:53Z")
Al there is one other situation that matters. The buyer already has Eth and uses it to buy the home. We do not know why the deal was done in Eth. Eth market cap is still a lot of buying power. The Google results… Basic Info. Ethereum Market Cap is at a current level of **160.79B** , up from 159.07B yesterday and down from 468.84B one year ago. This is a change of 1.08% from yesterday and -65.70% from one year ago. ---
**Author:** ![albaby1](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/motleyfoolfree/user_avatar/discussion.fool.com/albaby1/32/12772_2.png) [@albaby1](https://discussion.fool.com/u/albaby1)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2022, 4:30pm UTC](https://discussion.fool.com/t/nft-s-are-not-in-the-toilet/78739/38 "2022-10-24T16:30:37Z")
> [@Leap1](#): > > We do not know why the deal was done in Eth. True. Nothing in the article you quoted indicates that Eth was germane to the transaction at all, except to facilitate the NFT purchase. The price quoted was $175,000 - a round number expressed in dollars, not in Eth, which suggests that the transaction was denominated in dollars and not in Eth. We don’t know whether the buyer already had Eth, or had to go out and convert $ to Eth in order to complete the transaction. ---
**Author:** ![syke6](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/motleyfoolfree/user_avatar/discussion.fool.com/syke6/32/26265_2.png) [@syke6](https://discussion.fool.com/u/syke6)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2022, 6:26pm UTC](https://discussion.fool.com/t/nft-s-are-not-in-the-toilet/78739/39 "2022-10-24T18:26:42Z")
> [@buynholdisdead](#): > > It is in replacement of the current system. It is not done to every property right now but only the ones that are being sold as an NFT. They project that this is how all properties will be sold in the future, if I understand the Forbes article correctly. I just don’t see how this will work. Prior to creation of the real estate NFT, all of the due diligence information needs to be collected and added to the blockchain. The due diligence process is expensive, and is usually mostly paid for by the buyer. In this case though, it would need to be done by the seller prior to creation of the token. And for commercial properties, especially large ones, banks typically do their own due diligence on the property, and won’t accept reports from either the buyer or the seller (some exceptions, but that’s the standard). Now lets say the property NFT gets bought and sold a couple times, and it turns out there is a deficiency that was undisclosed for some reason. Who is responsible? Probably the original seller, because they created the blockchain right? If I were the seller, no way would I do due diligence for buyer, and vice versa. I’m just throwing spaghetti here, but there seem to be all kinds of problems with this idea. ---
**Author:** ![syke6](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/motleyfoolfree/user_avatar/discussion.fool.com/syke6/32/26265_2.png) [@syke6](https://discussion.fool.com/u/syke6)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2022, 6:31pm UTC](https://discussion.fool.com/t/nft-s-are-not-in-the-toilet/78739/40 "2022-10-24T18:31:09Z")
> [@Leap1](#): > > Al there is one other situation that matters. The buyer already has Eth and uses it to buy the home. We do not know why the deal was done in Eth. ETH is completely unsuitable for real estate transactions. It is far too volatile. I read a different article that said they used Circle (a crypto stablecoin). [Previous page](https://discussion.fool.com/t/nft-s-are-not-in-the-toilet/78739.md?page=1) [Next page](https://discussion.fool.com/t/nft-s-are-not-in-the-toilet/78739.md?page=3)