Nikola delivery via longer range hydrogen trucks

I think this is interesting and timely. This is the text on Facebook for the Forbes article.

"Electric truckmaker Nikola Corp. is showing off its longer-range hydrogen-fueled models by hauling beer for Anheuser-Busch around Los Angeles ahead of this weekends’ Super Bowl LVI

https://www.forbes.com/sites/alanohnsman/2022/02/11/nikola-k…

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lindytoes
"Electric truck maker Nikola Corp. is showing off its longer-range hydrogen-fueled models by hauling beer for Anheuser-Busch around Los Angeles ahead of this weekends’ Super Bowl LVI

Hydrogen as a fuel for mobile platforms IS the long range energy solution.

H2 is the most common element in the universe.

If the storage and transport of H2 has a solid solution, it paves the way for all electric generation sources to run 24/7, using all unneeded output (at slack time) to create H2.

Pumped storage already does this at a few select sites, obviously needing a place where the water can be pushed back up the hill to an upper reservoir. Relatively speaking, few sites have the capability.

With a solid H2 solution, EVERY generation site, world wide, can be put to work, 100%, 24/7. Elegant.

Hydrogen as a fuel for mobile platforms IS the long range energy solution.

Hydrogen is not a long range energy solution. It’s an energy storage and transport mechanism. And a fairly problematic one: low density, with a tendency to leak straight through the walls of storage containers - weakening certain sorts in the process.

That said, there may be situations where it’s a good choice…

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That said, there may be situations where it’s a good choice…

Sandy Munro has said that hydrogen is a good choice for trucks but not for cars.

The Captain

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warrl
Hydrogen is not a long range energy solution. It’s an energy storage and transport mechanism. And a fairly problematic one: low density, with a tendency to leak straight through the walls of storage containers - weakening certain sorts in the process.

Yep, on all counts! Can’t quibble.

That’s where the ‘solid solution’ part comes in. IF one can be found for those storage and distribution pesky parts.

(Is it an IF? Or a WHEN?)

H2 explosive property contributes its own non-trivial peskiness.

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H2 explosive property contributes its own non-trivial peskiness.

H2 poses less of an explosive risk than many common chemicals such as propane. One reason it’s such a low risk is because it’s such a light molecule, so tends to go UP when released into the air.

And of course, like most other flammables, it needs an oxidizer to do anything flame-like or explosive-like at all.

If released into an enclosed space, its tendency to go up means that - if it can’t escape entirely - it will concentrate in the highest parts of the space, often crowding out other molecules such as oxygen.

To get an explosion you need a mix of H2 and an oxidizer - usually O2, and the hydrogen tends to self-isolate if it has a chance.

warrl opines: Hydrogen is not a long range energy solution. It’s an energy storage and transport mechanism.

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Diesel is also an energy storage and transport mechanism.

Engineers have solved the problems of hydrogen containment in storage containers, tanks pipes and valves.

Engineers have developed fuel cells and gas turbines that work perfectly on hydrogen.

The hydrogen economy is the future - oil economy is the past.

Jaak

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H2 is the most common element in the universe.

H2 may or may not be a good choice for long range trucking.

But just because H atoms are common does not mean that H2 gas is readily available.
It isn’t.

Electrons are more common than H2, so what does that prove? Nothing.

In order to generate H2 gas and then compress and liquefy takes a lot of energy making it costly.

Mike

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H2 may or may not be a good choice for long range trucking.

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IOM, Nikola has done the calculations to prove that their fuel-cell and hydrogen storage systems will be a good choice for long range trucking.

Jaak

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They also made a fraudulent video of their truck rolling downhill…so I’m sure their calculations must have no bias in them. The trick isn’t the math, but the assumptions that they use. They probably assume some widespread network of well maintained high efficiency hydrogen fueling stations.

Mike

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H2 is the most common element in the universe.

Who is the low cost producer?

Andromeda? The Milky Way? Ursa Minor? The Southern Cross? Pluto?

The Captain

Who is the low cost producer?

Andromeda? The Milky Way? Ursa Minor? The Southern Cross? Pluto?

Try mother nature, as we literally have oceans full of hydrogen.

OTFoolish

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Try mother nature, as we literally have oceans full of hydrogen.

Got it! It does not matter that it is the most abundant element in the Universe because we have lots of it right here at home.

The Captain

A confused disussion.

“Creating H2” was a too abbreviated statement. We mean "separate H2 from H2O, CO2, and possible other sources by adding ENERGY that we hope to mostly (third law) regain when the H2 is recombined with (mostly) O2.

There are two answers that dominate:

  1. photosynthesis by a zillion fold over anything else on earth,
  2. photoelectric effect in solar panels and the like

Oh! And of course the biggest human production of H2 remains the burning or otherwise usage of fossil fuels to produce energy so as to produce H2 and O2 from water or the like, and also producing…CO2! Hmmm. Back to the drawing board.

Entropy and energy flows is what we need to discuss. Chemical reactions are merely the side show.

David fb

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Who is the low cost producer?

Andromeda? The Milky Way? Ursa Minor? The Southern Cross? Pluto?

The Captain

I’d have to select a bushel basket of stars from our own Milky Way… they’re only a few thousands of light years down the road, right in the neighborhood so to speak. Mining excursions to them could be easily accomplished, with equipment taking a couple of thousand years for their round trips… Musk can likely iron out the details of the process…

So many EZ solutions to the ‘unsolvable’!

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They probably assume some widespread network of well maintained high efficiency hydrogen fueling stations.

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We will see if their calculations are accurate. So it isn’t just the cost of making hydrogen that concerns you.

Jaak

Who is the low cost producer?

Andromeda? The Milky Way? Ursa Minor? The Southern Cross?

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They are helium producers.

Jaak :blush:

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Entropy and energy flows is what we need to discuss. Chemical reactions are merely the side show.

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Thermodynamics: the science of the relationship between heat, work, temperature, and energy. In broad terms, thermodynamics deals with the transfer of energy from one place to another and from one form to another. The key concept is that heat is a form of energy corresponding to a definite amount of mechanical work.

Although thermodynamics developed rapidly during the 19th century in response to the need to optimize the performance of steam engines, the sweeping generality of the laws of thermodynamics makes them applicable to all physical and biological systems. In particular, the laws of thermodynamics give a complete description of all changes in the energy state of any system and its ability to perform useful work on its surroundings.

Jaak

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We mean "separate H2 from H2O, CO2

No H in CO2. Maybe you meant CH4…

The Captain

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The Captain quoting and commenting on my post:

No H in CO2. Maybe you meant CH4…

How very embarrassing. I meant hydrocarbons. Sigh, and sometimes I forget to zip my pants… must be more careful.

:wink:

David fb

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