On public opinion

Strelna - it’s a very interesting perspective and younger hotheads should absolutely listen to older and wiser heads.

My thoughts on this to figure out this paradox which has seen us facing a very very tough era for the investing psyche - whereby ever since the GFC hit we have had crises and worries permanently being thrown at us but that has not prevent a bull run from happening…

  1. Corporate balance sheets and profitability levels have been restored and some making companies much more attractive in many ways than pre-crisis

  2. There is nowhere left to go - every other asset class looks much riskier and has hit a genuine bubble and bubble popping scenario (housing, commodities, bonds etc)

  3. Private sector looks so much better than public sector which has terrible fundamentals and is attracting all the investment in town

  4. Cash represents a currency risk - currencies are sovereign default instruments in a way so again stocks appear much safer

  5. There has been genuine innovation in business model productivity supported by fairly transformational influences like the cloud etc

  6. US looks way better positioned than any other market from a macro economic recovery (I’m a brit based in Singapore. Do I want to be in GBP, Euro, Yen, Rubles or any of those zombie economies? - no.)

  7. Highly accommodative policies have supported stock market investing (including ZIRP, QE, TBTF back stops etc).

  8. More than any of the above though - we have been reversing from a massive fall and now only reaching all time highs after 15 years on the Nasdaq for instance. Pretty much most of the gains we have seen in the last 5+ years have been basically recovering lost ground.

Ant

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Ant, completely agree with your list 1-7, which is why I am heavily invested, but not 8. The gains are not due to recovering lost ground, but to multiple expansion.

As a result, the approval and credence given to buybacks, acquisitions and other popular engineering of company figures (but not necessarily productivity) may be misplaced.

Our problem is (as you identify) the market is artificial. Wild distortions of the free market across the globe seems to me to warrant caution while still doing our best to make money.

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Eh - banks still loan money to businesses? I thought they just speculate on synthetic financial instruments with their own highly leveraged positions.
:wink:
Ant

LOL, touche! And that is why you will never find me holding any shares of a financial institution involved in any of those activities. There are many “real” banks still around; they just aren’t at the top of any market cap lists.

Fletch

Very interesting post, Fletch! But I have one question: if people are uncertain of the future interest rate environment now, why wouldn’t they still remain uncertain about the future rate environment even AFTER the Fed begins to raise rates? They are data dependent and if the data show, say in a year from now, that inflation is getting out of control then Fed may not be able to stick to their desired gradual rate rise.

Sure, it’s possible. Many things are possible. I think most of these guys are looking at what they think is probable. And hyper-inflation has not been a topic of conversation that I’ve heard much.

If you try hard enough, you can come up with reasons not to do anything, ever. But that’s not how most of these guys operate. They want to make moves, and each move is a calculated risk with a lot of guesses involved. And in their minds, the delta between the “stabilized” interest rate, whatever that rate may be, and today’s rate will get smaller with every future rate increase (gradual and measured increase, anyway). And as that delta gets smaller, the uncertainty inherent in these decision making processes gets smaller as well (theoretically, anyway).

If the facts change later on and the data indicate that inflation is getting out of control, I’m sure the conversation and calculus involved in these decisions will adjust accordingly and most likely any new business investment that had started will once again be curtailed. But that’s a potential problem for a later day :slight_smile:

Fletch

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we have been reversing from a massive fall and now only reaching all time highs after 15 years on the Nasdaq for instance. Pretty much most of the gains we have seen in the last 5+ years have been basically recovering lost ground.

But this is silly. I know of hardly anyone who was exclusively invested inthe Nasdaq, even in 1999 when the insanity reigned. And if people were, shame on them, they have demonstrated an inability to do anything but chase ghosts, not evaluate purchases of company stock. If you had put every nickel in at the S&P’s highest point (a broader, more meaningful measure), you would done so in October of 2007. You’d be in at $1,561. In the past two years the market has gone from $1,560 to over $1,800. In the past five years the S&P has climbed from $1,102 to $2,131 - nearly a 100% increase. The difference between the Nasdaq now and the Nasdaq then, it shouldn’t need to be pointed out, is that then it was a hyperbubble, with many companies based on nothing. Now, at least, there are functional companies, making products, earning profits, employing people in productive enterprise. Quite different.

Keep in mind also that your being 65 yo, you don’t likely have the luxury of being way off on your approach…a 70% clipping like Saul experienced in a single year could be quite stressful at 65.

There is no rule which says you have to sit on your hands while the market implodes. (It took over 2 years for the Nasdaq peak-to-trough between 1999 and 2002.) You could have been out with 10% or 20% or even 30% losses and been fine. The “collapse” of 2007? The S&P peaked in October of that year, and didn’t hit bottom until March of 2008. If you had 70% losses you were prey to the mantra of “doing nothing is better than doing something.” It’s been wrong before, it will be wrong again. It is pretty much wrong every time.

what we’ve been hearing from a lot of our clients the last couple of years is that they’ve actually held off from making many major capital investments because of uncertainly of the interest rate environment.

Warren Buffett’s BNSF is spending $5 billion a year to upgrade trackage and rail cars. Host Hotels is doubling its capital spending. Major investments are in the works by everyone from Macy’s to Campbell’s Soup. Dollar Tree is ramping up capital spending almost 50% this year. Did any of your clients know what interest rates were going to be 5 years out in 1998? In 2006? In 1992? In 1975? What five year projection has held up…ever? I think you’re hearing the first objection, and not the real objection.

A slow and reasonable increase in rates to a long-term, sustainable level may actually have the ironic effect of spurring business investment, which will lead to long-term, sustainable corporate profits. And that, generally, corresponds to strong stock market returns over time.

I haven’t looked at this closely, but based on a couple of side by side charts going back to 1971, I am unable to find much coorelation of where the market went up while interest rates were going up. The market went up slightly in 1992-3 when interest rates were rising, but barely. And it did so in the mid eighties, once Volker took his foot off the brake and then reapplied, but again barely. Meanwhile the chart of interest rates (actual) looks like the path of a drunken sailor trying to find his way back to his ship at midnight without a signpost or lamp. What possible “5 year projections” could anyone have made at any time? http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-states/interest-rate (I notice there are only two five year periods of any significant rate stability in the past 50 years: the mid nineties … and today.)

Someday … interest rates will start to rise again. By how much? We don’t know. For how long? We don’t know. What will the effects be? We don’t know. What we DO know is that the market goes up over time, that good companies with real earnings and a significant business model will tend to prosper, and that by trying to get rich quick you are more likely to get poor quick. Relax. Let the market do the work.

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Saul I have lots of indicators, many borrowed (Stolen?) from the good folks over on the mechanical investing board .

But I have said multiple times that I do not invest based on the “predictive” ones, only on the actionable ones, basically momentum based.
I use CAPE for background only. Knowing I can not succesfully predict ,I am willing to make do with quick reactions to unpredictable changes and events.

We have had corrections, just not any big ones.
If we had more corrections I would feel better about the stock market, but would not act any differently in terms of percentage devoted to equities.

I agree I don’t see much signs of euphoria from the publisc . In fact other than regular Keogh or IRA investing they don’t seem to be very interested investing on their own. Most had a hard lesson in 2008, and many fear job loss. Which seems to be hitting people their 50’s very hard. At least anecdotally. Continued shrinkage of income for the middle class doesn’t tend to lead to euphoria .

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We are in uncharted territory

which is actually bullish over a span of the next 2 or 3 months, because markets (broad indices) rarely collapse in that short a time span after new highs.

Isn’t it wonderful that everyone is worried about the market and the economy, and nobody seems euphoric?

In my fast growers watch list I see that 12 stocks and NASDAQ made new 52 week highs today and 3DP stocks and others made new 52 week lows. Activity at both ends, euphoria and misery.

Denny Schlesinger

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