Options day trades on SPY

I should probably explain this for people who are trying to learn. On a strangle you buy a call and a put of equal size but different strike prices all at the same time. When you buy a call you want the prices to go up so that you can profit, and when you buy a put you want the prices to go down for a profit. But when you buy both you don’t really care which way prices go. What you ideally want is a big move in either direction. If there is a big move up, you will make a lot of money on the call, and lose a smaller amount on the put for an overall profit. Likewise if the price moves down big, you make a lot on your put and lose less on the call. On a strangle you lose money if the prices move very little and over time all your options lose value until they eventually expire and you lose 100%. 100% is your maximum loss. Your maximum gain is unlimited.

Now, normally on a successful strangle, the price has moved so much that you make a big profit (more than 100%) on one side of your strangle, while the other side looses so much that it eventually expires worthless. On my strangles, if I gain more than 100% on one side I’ll often close just that one side, then leave the other side open, rather than close for a loss but a small return, because at that point I’m trading “on the house” with no risk of loss. If prices reverse and go big the other direction, I have a chance to make money on both sides. But this is not very common. Most times the losing side expires worthless.

On this strangle, I entered around 12:45pm on 10/16 when the prices were not moving very much. I was hoping that SPY would decide which way it was going and go that way hard. The next day it gapped down, but not far enough down for me to exit the put side. I was hoping for 100%+ profit and I wasn’t there yet, so I waited for it to go down further. Instead it went up and kept going up to after noon. Due to a negative divergence at that time, I felt that it may reverse and go down, so even though I didn’t have very much profit on the call side, I went ahead and exited that side. Doing this, I put myself into a situation where I had to hope for enough decline to be able to close my put side for a profit as well. It turns out it did go down far enough to make a profit and I could have closed, but I also felt that SPY was still going to go down further (I’ve been bearish in SPY for a long time as I have said in many different threads on the Fool boards). Today, we had another gap down and some negative trading, but positive divergences seemed to suggest that we might reverse to go up, so I exited my put side.

I still feel that SPY could go down further, but I really had to make an exit soon because my options expire on Friday and they lose value every day and faster as you approach expiration. SPY is now down a bit further as I type this, but I’m still satisfied.

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Okay, so now SPY has gone down a lot more and I could have profited much more than I did. I try to keep saying that I’m satisfied with my profit, but yes, it is frustrating. This seems to keep happening to me where I exit too early and miss out on giant profits.

But I have to keep reminding myself that the prices could have easily gone the wrong way against me as well, and that I had good reasons for my exit decision. Yes, I could have held on through the up moves and captured larger profits in the long run, but that would have been increased risk of greater losses too. In the end, I’d rather play it safe and book decent profits rather than take big risks for the possibility of giant returns. I usually listen to this wiser side of my thinking and generally do pretty well on profits.

But it is frustrating… :frowning:

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You entered on Monday, 10/16, with expiration on 10/20, yes?

Why did you pick 10/20 for expiry?

Can you explain (again :slightly_smiling_face:) this “negative” divergence?

And later, you write:

More details, please. :slightly_smiling_face:

Thanks for your explanations!
:face_with_monocle:
ralph

Hi Ralph,

No problem on explanations.

Yes I entered on 10/16 for an expiration on 10/20. On SPY you can pick almost any date for expiration. Most stocks are weekly, and some are monthly, but SPY is essentially daily for close-in expirations. There are plusses and minuses on the expiration date that you pick. If you pick a date that is further away then the options are more expensive. Yes, they give you more time for things to happen, but the more time that goes by the less they are worth so that even if the prices do not change (or go back to exactly the same price), your options will be worth less. The more time that goes by, the less your options are worth. So all of this needs to be kept in mind when you pick your date.

Now, the benefit of picking close-in dates is that you get more bang for your buck. If I pick a quick date like tomorrow, then a relatively small move in the stock can give you a bigger profit (or loss). The quicker your expiration date, the higher your “leverage” as they say. Now, the thing to keep in mind is that if you are trading out of the money like I almost always do, your options value will drop to zero by the expiration date so if you buy an options contract with 2 days to expiration, then you better get the move you want and get out fast because you really don’t have a whole day to mess around. If you hold overnight, your option will be worth a lot less in the morning.

Now, I usually like to split the difference. On most of my options plays I will give it between 1 week or maybe 2 weeks. I generally pick Friday so if I buy on Monday, I might go the whole week to Friday. But if I enter mid-week, like Wednesday, then I might have an expiration on the following Friday. Giving myself at least a little time allows me to let things play out.

Now, there are also other times when I will give my options a lot longer time to play. This happens when I am playing an event, or the market’s eventual reactions to an event. So for instance, if I think that a company is preparing to break out and go significantly higher, but I’m not sure how long it will take for the breakout, then I might buy a cheaper out of the money call that has months to play out. Or like I have a long term put right now on NVDA. Way back before their last earnings, I decided that they might have a huge move up like they did the last time, but I was skeptical. I didn’t really think that they would fail to hit their profits and revenue (which would have caused a huge crash), but I was skeptical about the market’s reaction to their earnings. AAPL recently had a positive earnings surprise but they still got hammered due to feared iPhone sales slowdown. My thinking was that if NVDA had positive numbers like everyone (and I mean EVERYONE) expected but the stock price didn’t move as expected then this would be viewed as negative overall. They are still doing great and it wouldn’t cause an immediate crash, but the price should trend down over time. So I bought some cheap near-expiring calls in case they rocket upward, but some long-expiring puts (December) to profit if they trend downward. So this was a strangle of sorts, but oriented towards the puts. On the first day after earnings, they gapped up then traded down all the way to unchanged. They did not move up nearly enough for me to profit on the calls which I held in case they popped up, but they kept going down and expired worthless. I still have the puts which were looking really good most of September, then were looking not so good, but are looking better again now. I believe they may actually challenge their 5/25 gap so I’m still holding.

A negative divergence is when the stock price is trending upward, while the oscillator (I’ve always used RSI, but lately have been watching Chande as well…the “Pretty Good Oscillator” is my favorite on Yahoo Finance) is trending downward. If the two (price and oscillator) are not agreeing then this is a “divergence” because they are diverging from each other. So if the stocks trend is upward but you reach a point where the oscillator trends downward while the price makes a higher high, then this tells you that the buyers are running out of steam and a reversal to the downside is more likely. Now, this is not perfect. Often you will have a 2-point divergence telling you that it could go down, then it it’ll make another higher high while the oscillator makes another lower high. This is now a 3-point divergence which is even more likely to come true, but not always. Sometimes you’ll see a 4-point divergence which means the reversal is even more likely. But remember, this is just likely, not certain. Sometime the prices will just ignore all your divergences and just do whatever it wants. All you can do is try to find ways to increase the probability of success as much as you can. There is no such thing as a perfect indicator. Like I always say, if I found one then I would keep it a secret and become a billionaire.

A positive divergence is the opposite of negative. It is when the prices are trending downward, but the oscillator begins to trend upward. This tells you that the sellers are losing steam and we are more likely to have a reversal to the upside.

One thing that I will say about these reversals that you may be trying to predict with oscillator divergences. Even if they prove to be accurate, you cannot really say how long the reversal will last. The point here is that you are using oscillator divergences just to help you with entries and exits. If I’m watching a 5-minute chart and gain a successful call entry because there is a positive divergence in my chart, then that’s great. But really I have no idea how long the recent reversal is going to last. Will it be the start of a new uptrend that lasts for hours? Days? I have no idea. An hour later it could be over and coming down. Generally, the longer the time interval of your chart, the longer the potential move. I like to think my 5-min chart can predict a move of about an hour (12 bars) give or take. It might turn out to be many hours, or many days, but not likely. It could also turn out to be 2 minutes. You just have to be careful and use stops.

Longer time frames will give you longer moves. So an hourly chart will give you moves that last for hours, or a daily chart will give you moves that last for days. I never use a 1-min chart because anything that comes from a 1-min chart would last for so short that it’s almost worthless.

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Hey Ralph

One further thing that I will say on divergences if you are trying to get more familiar is that you should look at some charts that show prices but have an oscillator indicator on the bottom. Similar to the charts that you see me post. If you are not paying for charting platform or have a broker that provides pretty good charts, then one of the better free places to go is finance.yahoo.com, put your ticker into the search bar on top (like “SPY”), then click on “Chart” right next to “Summary.” This is their interactive charts. If you click on “+Indicators” on the upper left of the chart, you can select “Pretty Good Oscillator” which I think is the best on Yahoo. Pick the time frame that you like the best (I usually use 5-min) and look at the historical action along with the oscillator. You can see how the divergences do give you an indicator of when a reversal is more likely.

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thanks @dereksas
I use the ‘free’ stockcharts.com with RSI and MACD. But, I’ve never really used the divergence of the oscillator vs the stock price.
I’ve been ‘KISS’.
Now, I’ll pay some attention to that divergence.
Thanks also for the comments about ‘time period’ (5 minute, 1 hour, daily, etc).

:slight_smile:
ralph

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RSI works pretty well. I used to use just RSI until I discovered Chande on TradeStation. I’ve seen Chande on Yahoo and other places, but it doesn’t seem to work the same as on TradeStation. I’m sure it has to do with the variables, but I’ve tried different ones and can’t get Yahoo to mirror TradeStation. I think if you watch RSI and look at historical charts with RSI, you will get a hang for the divergences. A lot of people use RSI and other oscillators just to tell them if stocks are trading positive (upper half) or negative (lower half). I don’t think this is very valuable at all. I feel like the divergences give you a lot more information. Most times when you are trying to catch a reversal going up, the oscillator will start in the lower half. Likewise, if you are trying to catch a reversal going down the oscillator will be in the upper half. So more times then not, I am trading against the oscillator reading. I’m entering my trade to go up when the oscillator is saying things are negative. This is because the oscillator’s exact number is telling you about the past, not the future. But the oscillator’s trend does try to tell you something about where things might be going in the future.

yep. that’s how I ‘use’ it. and I’ve come to the same conclusion: ‘not very valuable’.

That’s what I am looking for.
I am habituated to look at the RSI and MACD. And at the trend of the stock price and volume.
So, adding this ‘what is the trend of the oscillator’ relative to the trend of the stock price, should be ‘easy’?
Again. THANKS for your teaching!
ralph

I used to use MACD more in the past, but I always found that it was a bit late and it was usually telling me things that I already knew (the past). The thing I like about looking at oscillator trends is that you can see the divergences coming before they happen.

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Here is the Chande Trend Meter on stock charts. Com.

https://school.stockcharts.com/doku.php?id=technical_indicators:chande_trend_meter

It calculates a single number between 0 and 100.

Stock charts puts it in a color coded graphic.

I assume you use the number?
Here is the Chande for QQQ, with CTM 57.4.
Flat or weak downtrend.
{Light Green: 60-80 (weak uptrend)
Yellow: 20-60 (flat or weak downtrend)}

I can see that this will be useful!
Thanks again for the tips!
:slightly_smiling_face:
ralph

So SPY broke the 10/13 low late yesterday but closed above it. I commented yesterday that I believed that whatever support was there at the 10/13 low was now decreased and I didn’t expect it to hold very well the next time. We broke through that today as well as yesterday’s low and were consolidating sideways. I went ahead and entered another strangle. My thinking is that with support broken we could fall all the way to challenge the early October lows, or we could bounce up some from an oversold position over the last few days. We could also bounce enough to be overbought on the oscillator and set up for a straight put, in which case I might close my call side and add to my puts. We’ll see… Trade details:

10/27, C438 1.10, P415 1.08

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Oh, also Powell to speak at noon today which is another wild card for today’s action.

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Well, shoot. My call was pretty profitable around 2.00 and Powell was about to speak live so I set a stop at 1.75. The market reversed pretty hard and I stopped. Filled at 1.75 (thank goodness for the narrow spreads on SPY). So I made a 59% profit on the call side, but am now left with a straight put. With any luck I profit on both sides like I did the last time which is very unusual and I’ll count my lucky stars!

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Okay, I’m out and I did profit on both sides again. Trade stats:

10/27
C438 Bought: 1.10 Sold: 1.75
P415 Bought: 1.08 Sold: 1.52
Total Bought: 2.18
Total Sold: 3.27
Total Profit: 50.0%

Not bad for a day trade.

Here’s the chart showing what happened, when, and what I was watching:

At the time I entered my call and put (“CP”) there was a 2-point positive divergence indicating that it might reverse upward, but it had also just broken recent support (10/13 low, horizontal line) so it might also have gone down. The trade started going up, and the call was valued around 2.00 when I set a stop of 1.75 which was hit pretty quick on the sharp reversal downward. It initially went up on high volatility due to the pre-noon release of Powell’s talking point notes before his talk, then went down when he started talking. I could have got out of my puts at around 12:45 for a profit, but I held on because I felt that SPY would go down further. It had another bounce up at 12:45 during the Powell talk then topped out as soon as he was done. I viewed all this volatile action as pretty bearish. 4-5 points up, then 4-5 points down, then 4-5 points up again. I was proven correct as it came down to new lows of the day, including a 50% consolidation that worked perfectly. I exited at a 2-point positive divergence, and it did start to reverse upward, but I now notice that I should have waited longer for the 3-point divergence. That’s what always seems to happen to me, but again I have to keep telling myself that I did the right thing!

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Here is something else I was watching in real time. The CBOE 10-Year note. The market as a whole, S&P 500 (SPY) in this case tends to follow this interest rate. When interest rates are high, stocks go down, and when interest rates go down, stocks go up. I heard that during Powell’s talk the rate got very close to 5% and I knew if the rate stays close or passes 5%, SPY would take it really hard. 5% is often mentioned in the press as a significant value. As I was watching it, I found that SPY and the 10-Year note were very closely tied. Here’s the chart for the 10-Year Note. Keep in mind that CBOE is in Chicago, so the time on the chart is one hour off from Eastern time.

The climbing yield and it’s proximity to 5% made me more sure that SPY was headed down in the afternoon. If you compare this chart to the 5-min chart of SPY for today, you will find that they are almost perfectly inversely related. I tend to think that a real-time read of the 10-year note would be a leading indicator for stocks, by at least a few seconds. This is because stock traders watch the 10-year note and react. Bond traders do not typically watch stocks in order to determine note yields. I also believe that this is particularly true right now because of how the market is thinking. It may not have always been true and it might not be true in the future.

SPY seems to be setting up for a multi-point positive divergence for a call in the 5-min. We shall see…

Okay, I’m in on a quick day trade.

SPY 10/23, C430 0.87

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Update on this trade. Yesterday, I mentioned that I thought that 425 and 420 were important levels for SPY. I entered this trade above 425, but when 425 was broken, instead of stopping myself out, I added a put making this a strangle. This way, I can profit if it keeps going down, but I can also profit if the divergence causes a bounce. The near term expiration allows me to profit on relatively smaller moves. We’ll see how this works…

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Well, it turns out that it is totally not true just one day later. SPY and the 10 Year Note Yield are basically moving exactly with each other today, not opposite like yesterday. It appears that some days stock traders watch the yield, but other days it doesn’t seem to matter at all.

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Okay, I’m out of the put side based on a multi-point positive divergence. I notice that I didn’t give the Trade stats before:

SPY 10/23, P419 Entry: 0.83 Exit: 1.35 Profit 62.6%

But this profit does not account for my call which is a big loser. I did not profit enough on the put to pay for my call so I still need some positive movement from here in order to profit on this strangle. I’ll post a chart later when I have more time.

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