OT:EU No Longer Believes in Victory on Battlefield in Ukraine

We strongly support President Trump’s position that the fighting should stop immediately, and that the current line of contact should be the starting point of negotiations.

Unfortunately the Russians still think they are winning and thus are continuing the war that will be decided on the battlefield.
Thus far attacks upon Russian gasoline oil fields & refineries have not garnered the desired response. In fact, they have generated increased Russian attacks upon Ukrainian gas fields & utilities.

*Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov has dismissed European appeals for an immediate ceasefire in Ukraine , arguing that halting hostilities now would, in his words, "preserve the N@i regime " and “ban the Russian language .”

The comments followed a joint statement issued by European leaders on October 21, which expressed approval of President Trump’s efforts to broker a ceasefire and suggested that “the current line of contact should be the starting point of negotiations.According to The Washington Post , during his recent discussion with Trump, Vladimir Putin demanded that Russia be granted full control over Donetsk Oblast as a condition to end the war, while hinting that Moscow might concede parts of Zaporizhzhia and Kherson oblasts in return. Trump, for his part, reportedly supported a proposal to freeze the war along the existing front line but denied urging Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky to surrender all of Donetsk.

WWII happened because the Great War ended in an armistice and in a horrible peace treaty. Utter defeat of the Axis Powers reformed Germany and Japan making them give up militarism. An armistice in the Ukraine war will not reform Russia. Russia needs to be humiliated and Ukraine is doing it quite well moving the battleground to Mother Russia.

The Captain

8 Likes

We are testing the waters of giving Ukrainians missiles. First we say all can be forgiven and forgotten. Then we say oh mi oh my, I guess Putin has not listened to us. We will need to deliver cruise missiles. What else can we do.

The song and dance.

No one has given up at all. Putin is the frog in the pot of water.

2 Likes

…and the Europeans are finally realizing that being constantly ready to fight off Russia is an ongoing significant expense, and it may make far more sense to simply spend a LOT for a couple of years and end the Russian threat.

10 Likes

Putin knows eventually we get tired of spending the money to defend Ukraine. With patience he will win.

Putin operates under the nuclear umbrella. When he rattles nuclear sabers the West cringes. I don’t think he can win a nuclear war. He is bluffing but will continue to use this ploy as long as it works.

We must call his bluff.

3 Likes

No one wins a nuclear war. There are only survivors.

—Peter

PS - nuclear war being defined here as the mutual exchange of multiple warheads from both sides.

2 Likes

I still say Putin is bluffing when he mentions using nuclear weapons. And the West over reacts. We should call his bluff.

4 Likes

Who is the “we” here?

IMNSHO, “we” needs to include Europe. In a potential nuclear exchange, Europe not only has the potential for some fallout from US bombs hitting western Russia, they’re also a potential target for Russian bombs.

—Peter

2 Likes

Definitely. As it is, they are spending a lot more to re-arm since 2022. Nations like Poland are particularly eager to beef-up, and to send whatever they can to Ukraine. Because Poland could be next, and they know it.

Much of the EU is sending whatever they can to Ukraine, knowing that a) not doing so will send the wrong message to Putin, and b) Russia is getting weaker by the day. With regards to that latter point, if the war would end tomorrow, Russia could not mount any significant offensive for years. The longer they drain their resources in the Ukraine conflict, the weaker they become, and the longer it will take for them to recover. They’ve already emptied their boneyards, salvaging and/or reactivating some equipment from WWII. Their Black Sea Fleet is severely damaged (and Ukraine doesn’t even have a navy).

As long as Ukraine is willing, we should be keeping them supplied so they can grind down Russia. They will never achieve a battlefield victory. But, at some point, Russia will go home. Just as they did in Afghanistan. Just as we did in Vietnam and Afghanistan. Eventually, it just isn’t worth it to an invader to remain if there is significant resistance.

5 Likes

Not just utter defeat. Occupation, forced removal and trials of officials, and supervised reconstruction of their governments.

4 Likes

Yes, the Marshall Plan was stroke of genius, the exact opposite of the punitive Treaty of Versailles.

The Captain

5 Likes

To me “we” is the West. Russia’s weapons can easily reach any of us. Yes, Europe is the closest target and one that should see defense most urgent.

1 Like