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As long as Roku is coming pre-installed on televisions, it does not matter what else is out there. Now fully 1/3 of all smart TVs sold have Roku as the operating system. Up from 1/5 from a couple years ago.

I am glad you pointed that out 12x, I forgot to mention. Roku is also a walled garden, which is another strike I see for them. They are trying to create their own add supported system. I have 3 smart tv’s and do not use any of the apps or roku that came with them. I went out and bought a firetv and xbox 1 that allow me to load any app I want onto them.

I have never tried Roku so I can’t say anything about their system.

Andy

So what retailers are going to sell FireTV? A product of their competitor? FireTV is trying to do the exact same thing, create a walled garden, that’s not an issue is it? At the end of the day Roku is just getting a channel to have an advertising outlet. One of Rokus advantages is they are 100% neutral.

Years ago when I thought the idea of buying books online was bad because you could not browse through it to see if it was good first and passed on a stock called Amazon, I learned not to disregard results because of my opinion. And Roku is getting results. Just look at the chart showing market share in this report.

https://ir.roku.com/static-files/df3d060c-0975-4903-83d3-0e1…

Of course there are people who would rather buy a FireTV or whatever else. They make the minority according to the chart. That upward sloping line showing Roku is in the lead and growing the lead is what matters. Not personal preference.

I’m obviously not here to change minds or convince people to buy Roku but that’s the way I see it. Much has been said about Roku already. But let’s not look at the wrong thing and consider them another Fitbit or GoPro or whatever when their future lies in operating system/platform. That has several demographic trends working in their favor.

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Let me just say my thesis for holding Roku is it being the default OS preinstalled in various television brands. The other line going up strong on that chart is Tizen which is a Samsung brand operating system. I do not see Roku having a large presence in Samsung. Samsung owns roughly 33% of the smart TV market. LG and Visio are also large. Will have to see if it makes sense to expect Roku to continue to garner TV OS market share. That has been a driver for growth recently. Because if not it then falls back on them selling more devices. Samsung and Roku alone make up a big part of the market already.

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We are just having a good conversation about Roku 12x. I don’t have a dog in this hunt and maybe you will change my mind

I’m obviously not here to change minds or convince people to buy Roku but that’s the way I see it. Much has been said about Roku already. But let’s not look at the wrong thing and consider them another Fitbit or GoPro or whatever when their future lies in operating system/platform. That has several demographic trends working in their favor.

Now that you brought up GoPro, isn’t what they did exactly what Roku is trying to do. The only difference is that Gopro had their own content. They were trying to be a content provider which would have allowed them to monetize it. What does Roku have that is different or a moat? It isn’t their OS because their are many OS’s and people do not care about that. Describe to me their moat.

So what retailers are going to sell FireTV? A product of their competitor? FireTV is trying to do the exact same thing, create a walled garden, that’s not an issue is it? At the end of the day Roku is just getting a channel to have an advertising outlet. One of Rokus advantages is they are 100% neutral.

Actually Amazon is breaking down walled gardens. This was posted on this board awhile ago when TTD was teaming with Amazon. TTD, as you know, works with anybody and everybody except walled gardens.

https://www.fool.com/investing/2019/08/13/heres-why-the-trad…

One of Rokus advantages is they are 100% neutral.

Except for ads, they are just neutral in giving out other people’s content, except for Kodi. But maybe that is why they won’t let Kodi on their box, because that is another free OS. I would say they are trying to be another netflix right?

Andy

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Let me just say my thesis for holding Roku is it being the default OS preinstalled in various television brands.

Ok thanks 12x.

Andy

Wow. Go away for half a day and a great discussion on Roku breaks out. I also received a reply off board with someone’s reasoning for giving it a pass, so greatly appreciated. I’m clearly biased since I own the stock, but I’d like to add some thoughts to those already made. This isn’t meant to convince anyone to buy, hold or sell the stock. It’s only meant to clarify my thesis within the context of the current conversation.

First, I had a couple comments on the business plan as I view it.

Andy: What does Roku have that is different or a moat? It isn’t their OS because their are many OS’s and people do not care about that.

In a weird way the fact people don’t care might actually be somewhat of a moat. Other than the really small subset you reference that prefer Kodi, most consumers are indeed indifferent about their smart-TV OS. That indifference means those consumers who aren’t seeking out a specific OS have a 1-in-3 chance of buying a smart TV with Roku as the potential default for accessing their content. So the moat might not be the consumer, but rather the existing deals with manufacturers who have already committed to putting Roku’s OS in their product. This is where Roku’s neutrality helps them. What smart-TV manufacturer that doesn’t have its own OS would willingly want to install Samsung’s or Amazon’s when those companies are clearly direct competitors? In my opinion that gives Roku a definite edge. Someone is going to get the consumer’s money. Roku is putting itself in position to facilitate a boatload of those transactions.

Andy: I would say they are trying to be another netflix right?

I think that’s an interesting comp and it does makes some sense to me (others may chime in if they disagree). The difference I see is Roku isn’t stubbornly digging its heels in against an ad-supported free offering like Netflix. Roku is instead embracing that concept with the intent of monetizing their users however they can with no real preference whether it’s through subscriptions or ads.

Next, I had some observations on their numbers.

Andy: So while roku is putting up some great numbers right now, the one number that I do not like is it’s gross margins. They are sitting at 47% which is probably about average for a company that is building and selling devices but is not impressive.

12x: Roku’s device sales have actually been very lackluster. That’s not where their growth is comping from. This is not a “device” company like Fitbit. It’s an operating system company that monetizes it with free ad supported content.

I agree with 12x’s statement, and that’s a big part of my thesis for owning the company. As Andy points out, overall gross margins are pretty pedestrian. However, I view Roku more through the individual breakouts they provide. Their own stated strategy is “trading player margin for account growth and platform revenue growth". So how are they doing?

First, let’s take a look at the big picture through overall revenues and gross margin:


Net Revenue						% YoY					
	Q1	Q2	Q3	Q4	YR			Q1	Q2	Q3	Q4	YR
2017	$100.09	$99.63	$124.78	$188.26	$512.76		2017	 	 	 	 	 
2018	$136.58	$156.81	$173.38	$275.74	$742.51		2018	36.4%	57.4%	38.9%	46.5%	44.8%
2019	$206.66	$250.10	 	 	 		2019	51.3%	59.5%	 	 	 

Gross Margin				
	Q1	Q2	Q3	Q4	YR
2017	38.8%	37.8%	40.0%	39.0%	39.0%
2018	46.2%	49.6%	45.6%	40.7%	44.7%
2019	48.8%	45.7%	 	 	 

My Take: Accelerating revenues. Nice! To Andy’s point, overall gross margins make me a little less enthusiastic. So let’s dig deeper.

How about player margin?


Player Revenue						% YoY					
	Q1	Q2	Q3	Q4	YR			Q1	Q2	Q3	Q4	YR
2017	$63.68	$53.65	$67.25	$102.82	$287.41		2017	 	 	 	 	 
2018	$61.50	$66.47	$73.33	$124.34	$325.64		2018	-3.4%	23.9%	9.0%	20.9%	13.3%
2019	$72.51	$82.42	 	 	 		2019	17.9%	24.0%	 	 	 

Player Margin				
	Q1	Q2	Q3	Q4	YR
2017	16.9%	6.4%	7.9%	9.5%	10.2%
2018	15.8%	22.2%	11.5%	2.4%	11.0%
2019	9.8%	5.5%	 	 	 

My Take: Yuck. Player margin stinks! They’d better be trading it for something else or they are probably on the road to bankruptcy.

How about account growth?


Active Accounts (millions)				% YoY						
	Q1	Q2	Q3	Q4	YR			Q1	Q2	Q3	Q4	YR
2017	14.2	15.1	16.7	19.3	 		2017	 	 	 	 	 
2018	20.8	22.0	23.8	27.1	 		2018	46.5%	45.7%	42.5%	40.4%	 
2019	29.1	30.5	 	 	 		2019	39.9%	38.6%	 	 	 
												
Streaming Hours (billions)				% YoY						
	Q1	Q2	Q3	Q4	YR			Q1	Q2	Q3	Q4	YR
2017	3.3	3.5	3.8	4.3	14.9		2017	 	 	 	 	 
2018	5.1	5.5	6.2	7.3	24.1		2018	54.5%	57.1%	63.2%	69.8%	61.7%
2019	8.9	9.4	 	 	 		2019	74.5%	70.9%	 	 	 

My Take: Now we are getting somewhere. Roku has 30.5 million users streaming 9.4 billion hours. Roku is not only gaining millions of eyeballs each quarter but also seeing the time those eyeballs spend glued to their platform skyrocket. That’s a lot of opportunities to monetize their platform.

And finally, platform revenue growth:


Platform Revenue						% YoY					
	Q1	Q2	Q3	Q4	YR			Q1	Q2	Q3	Q4	YR
2017	$36.42	$45.98	$57.53	$85.44	$225.36		2017	 	 	 	 	 
2018	$75.08	$90.34	$100.05	$151.40	$416.86		2018	106.2%	96.5%	73.9%	77.2%	85.0%
2019	$134.15	$167.68	 	 	 		2019	78.7%	85.6%	 	 	 

Gross Margin				
	Q1	Q2	Q3	Q4	YR
2017	77.1%	74.4%	77.3%	74.6%	75.7%
2018	71.1%	69.8%	70.5%	72.2%	71.1%
2019	69.9%	65.4%	 	 	 

My Take: In my opinion this is where the real profit potential lies. Platform revenue growth is accelerating at VERY impressive rates, and gross margins are clearly MUCH higher in this area. What makes this development even more intriguing (to me anyway) is this:


Platform Rev % Total			
	Q1	Q2	Q3	Q4	YR
2017	36.4%	46.1%	46.1%	45.4%	43.9%
2018	55.0%	57.6%	57.7%	54.9%	56.1%
2019	64.9%	67.0%	 	 	 

As you can see, those higher margin platform revenues are rapidly becoming an ever bigger piece of Roku’s total pie. The company does indeed sell some hardware but only as a means to get more viewers on its platform. It’s the ads and extras Roku offers once those viewers are there that lead to the real money. I interpret Roku’s numbers as showing they are not only sticking to their stated strategy but executing it perfectly. I have no reason to think their business momentum won’t continue at least through the second half of the year, especially when you consider the potential accounts and hours they could add via people upgrading TV’s over the holidays. I can’t speak for everyone that holds Roku, but I consider the next two or three quarters must-see TV (very crappy pun totally intended). I guess that’s what makes a market.

12x: I’m obviously not here to change minds or convince people to buy Roku but that’s the way I see it.

Andy: I don’t have a dog in this hunt and maybe you will change my mind

To me this exchange exemplifies why this board is so great. I’m never looking to change anyone’s mind in these discussions. I’m only looking to refine my own thesis through the viewpoint of others. Everyone here is 100% free to make their own decisions on what to do with their money. There’s really nothing to “win” on an internet message board. Unfortunately, not everyone feels that way and it can often pollute the discourse to the point the entire board suffers. In my opinion that’s part of what splintered NPI and I believe the entire Fool community is worse because of it.

In its purest sense Roku is only a dog in my hunt while I choose to own it. That’s the only connection I have to the company. I’m not here to stump for technologies, gardens or brands. I’m only here to find stocks I think can maximize my returns until a better option comes along. I don’t own a Roku device or TV and don’t plan on it. I’m simply choosing to own a part of what I believe is a successful business at this point in time. It’s discussions like these that help guide my decisions and I appreciate the thoughtful yet civil way we continue to break these things down.

Andy: … keep a sharp eye on it.

Very sage advice, my friend. I promise I will.

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I’d love to see a breakdown of where ROKU’s revenue comes from. Users don’t pay…except for their premium content, which has to be minuscule. Not sure why content providers like Netflix or HBO would pay…Roku benefits from having their products available as much or more than they do. Who’s paying Roku all these hundreds of millions of dollars a year? Advertisers? To show a little add on the home screen before the user clicks on Netflix or HBO’s app? How much can they charge for that?

I just don’t understand how they make money. Or what exactly they’re selling. That’s why I haven’t been able to buy ROKU.

Bear

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I’d love to see a breakdown of where ROKU’s revenue comes from. – Bear

When I want company details… I go to the company:

https://ir.roku.com/static-files/df3d060c-0975-4903-83d3-0e1…

Both platform and player segments exceeded our expectations resulting in an exceptional quarter. Total revenue growth accelerated to 59% YoY, primarily driven by growth in advertising as Roku monetized video ad impressions once again more than doubled YoY. Increases in the estimated value of content distribution agreements, based on improved visibility and performance trends, also resulted in a larger than expected recognition of revenue in the quarter. As a reminder, revenue recognition for our content distribution agreements can be lumpy quarter-to-quarter.

The most successful digital ad platforms are built on three ingredients: a coveted audience, reach at scale, and proprietary data to drive results for marketers. Roku possesses all three. This quarter, we’re highlighting how data is scaling and differentiating our platform business.

There is more at the link where they explain this stuff.

Rob
Rule Breaker / Market Pass / Supernova Navigator Home Fool & STMP/MTH Maintenance Coverage Fool
He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose.

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Who’s paying Roku all these hundreds of millions of dollars a year? Advertisers? To show a little add on the home screen before the user clicks on Netflix or HBO’s app? How much can they charge for that?

Bear, Roku has the “Roku Channel” that you can watch movies for free. This is all older content, but its free. Roku will show advertisements on these channels, and that is how they are generating income from their platform.

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Rob,

Thanks for the post and the link to the information.

I have posted a few times over the past few weeks on the topic of Roku and what will be its role and advantages in the Ad Exchange as CTV programmatic advertising continues to grow exponentially over the next 5 years. Therefore, I will not bore anyone with continued discussion on that topic.

However, I will say that having read the information provided by Rob’s link, a form of the words “ad” or “advertising” appears no fewer than 20 times in the first 4 pages of the report. Keep in mind that this count does not include the numerous uses of the word “marketing”.

That is where Roku will be as the years tick by and cord-cutters and never-corders continue to grow.

On a topic related to words in the referenced report…the most important word only appeared once…INTERNATIONAL.

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Bear, Roku has the “Roku Channel” that you can watch movies for free. This is all older content, but its free. Roku will show advertisements on these channels, and that is how they are generating income from their platform.

That’s a great example of something I’d like to know. How many users watch the “Roku Channel?” And how much of their platform revenue comes from ads on this channel?

Bear

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To give you a precise answer as to where they are getting the ads to sell here’s the source.

https://digiday.com/media/inside-race-scramble-ad-supported-…

In deals with TV networks and other publishers that distribute their apps on Roku and Amazon, both platforms take 30% of the ad inventory available on those apps.

A publisher if they want someone to view their content (so they themselves can sell ads) they must get their app on a platform for it to be viewed. In order for Roku to allow the app/channel onto Roku the price is to give them 30% of the ad inventory for Roku to market and sell via their own machinations.

Same for Amazon and FireTV.

So if Discovery Channel App has a thirty minute show that has 10 ad impressions in total, 3 will be Roku’s.

30% of ads across expanding number of apps and channels x ballooning streaming hours (+72%) = accelerating hyper growth.

Darth

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Expanding on what I was saying since Roku Channel was brought up. The movies on their are owned by a publisher say 20th Century Fox.

Big hasn’t made Fox a lot of money lately. Let’s dust it off and put it on the Roku channel and their 30 million+ sets of eyeballs and set it up to have 3 breaks of 5 ads. Every time Big streams Fox sells 10 ads and Roku sells 5. And so on and so forth for all the ad supported content. There’s apps and channels and movies and shows. And shows and movies in apps.

I believe there’s other complexities and deals and ad selling services (like programmatic data) that a Roku provides to add to the mix as well. But Ads are what make up the bulk of platform revenue.

Darth

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I first bought a stake in ROKU in late 2017 primarily because i believed in the future potential of superb Founder/CEO Anthony Wood and added heavily in the December, 2018 decline as data became more clear and as my understanding increased.

Wood has proven his visionary and executive brilliance and has been telling us all along that the ROKU device is primarily a loss leader to enable the leap into a broad range of more lucrative services associated with the move to CTV.

ROKU provides an OS system for content providers, a superior system for adtech targeting while maintaining consumer privacy (unlike Amazon, Facebook, Google), and sign up support for new customers for all content providers.

Here is a quote from Wood 13 months ago trying to o tell the market it is missing the point in thinking of ROKU as hardware:

“We don’t really make money… we certainly don’t make enough money to support our engineering organization and our operations and the cost of money to run the Roku service…That’s not paid for by the hardware. That’s paid for by our ad and content business…We help content distributors find customers, sign up customers, and promote their content, and we get paid for that.”

This is from the most recent Q call:

“Our ad business is thriving as we offer a superior solution providing precision targeting, access to premium inventory, unique sponsorships, and OTT reach that an individual publisher of third-party ad tech provider cannot match. The Roku OS was built to create value for advertisers and content distributors.”

I do wonder if Amazon’s latest move with TTD is an effort to compete with ROKU’s privacy advantage. I don’t buy the pitch that AMZN’s primary purpose is a magnanimous move to help out the little guys and weaken anti competitive arguments.

Of course it is comforting to see the continuing ROKU skepticism. I continue to be very long but not without growing concern over valuation. Longer term investors own stocks when we think the future is better than the current consensus.

Results of the last 2 quarters has made it fairly clear that the existential case against ROKU is dead. Rather, ROKU now seems destined to have an important and secure place in the future of the huge and rapidly growing CTV service opportunities. How dominant a place and how much is already priced in the stock is still unclear. I remain pretty comfortable risking a sizeable stake on Anthony Wood’s ambition and ability to stay in front.

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Bought Roku at $40 in January and sold at $150. I’ll be back in but it’s ran too much to fast for me. The last quarter was killer and you all that aren’t owning it because you’re looking at it as a hardware play and tracking overall 47% margins.

That’s the old roku. Instead track it as an add platform play. Those margins are at 86% and all you should be tracking.
Hope it drops to the 120’s so I can load up again.

How has owning TTD during that time worked? Not nearly as good. I’ll be in TTD before next earnings but don’t see much of a need to try my luck with them until about that time. But there’s room for both to kill it in this market.

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Bear,

My best guess – tons of ad revenue from YouTube. People get Roku for the all-in-one platform. Anything they watch on YouTube has ads. Those ads add up (see what I did there :)).

Just a guess, but I think it’s much bigger than what Roku channel brings in,

Brian

Long ROKU (very small position)

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My best guess – tons of ad revenue from YouTube. People get Roku for the all-in-one platform. Anything they watch on YouTube has ads.

Brian, why would YouTube let Roku have any of that ad revenue? YouTube doesn’t (I wouldn’t think) care if people watch their ads on Roku, their phone, their computer, their iPad, another device connected to a TV, etc. It seems crazy to think they’d give anything to Roku, doesn’t it?

Bear

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Roku could block YouTube ads or replace them with their own. Adblockers are developed and used for free. It’s probably easier to compromise and pay a small fee to those who watch on Roku than continue to change code or not work with the platform.

Brian, why would YouTube let Roku have any of that ad revenue? YouTube doesn’t (I wouldn’t think) care if people watch their ads on Roku, their phone, their computer, their iPad, another device connected to a TV, etc. It seems crazy to think they’d give anything to Roku, doesn’t it?

Bear, pretty sure this has to do w the great distribution Roku has ---- 30.5M active accounts and 9.4Bn streaming hours. The content on the home screen of roku includes Netflix, Amazon, HBO, Pandora, CBS News, etc., YouTube has to be a part of that or potentially risk losing mindshare.

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Brian, why would YouTube let Roku have any of that ad revenue

Respectfully that should be obvious. Billions of ad impressions. What else are you going to watch you tube on. A phone? To stream it on the TV you make a deal with ROKU and Amazon, etc.

Darth

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