The Ukraine War

There is a certain symmetry to salvaging tanks from the boneyard, and manning them with the dregs of Russian prisons. One advantage I can think of, the tank’s systems are probably primitive enough that the convicts will not need much training to drive them into the teeth of Ukrainian AT missiles.

Steve

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Some of those guys might be smart enough to sabotage their own tank before they get into range of those AT missiles.

Of course, some of the Russian commanders may put padlocks on the outside of the hatch (or simply weld it shut) to prevent this from happening.

Of course, some of those guys might still be smart enough to drive the thing off the road and into the mud enough to get stuck … before getting into range of those AT missiles.

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Of course, the expendable crews in the expendable tanks will understand that, if they don’t press their attack, they will be executed by the next rank of troops behind them. And that second rank will be eager to do it, because, if the first rank does not make the objective, the second rank becomes the next first rank, clattering into the teeth of the latest western AT hardware.

Steve

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The second rank is similar to the first rank, just not necessarily hardened criminals. If they kill the first rank, they’re sure to go in next. So they probably will also arrange for various accidents that just happen to disable their tank. Plus it should be expected that such old tanks will “break down” regularly. Heck, they weren’t so reliable even when new. :sunglasses:

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Is Elon Musk a threat to national security? From December…

How would you like to be an astronaut sitting on a launch pad or already in flight or sitting in a space station knowing that your safe return might depend on:

  • a engineer on the ground being available to troubleshoot an equipment issue on your craft?
  • the availability of a part in short supply because SpaceX manufacturing is short on machinists or assembly personnel?
  • expertise from a sub-contractor currently in some payment battle with SpaceX stemming from a random fit of pique by Elon Musk?

How are people in the Department of Defense feeling about our ability to keep spy satellites up as old ones need replacing so we aren’t missing critical intelligence about Russia, North Korea, China or Iran? SpaceX has proven, state of the art rocket technology but that expertise cannot be retained if the culture of the firm and the behavior of its leadership is viewed as toxic to a wide swath of current employees. Even if current employees are willing to tolerate it, will the company be able to attract additional employees from the outside to keep pace with higher delivery tempos?

Answers to the question will differ but the question is valid for defense and space organizations.

WTH

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Bezos might end up with the business before long. Half the business right away?

Step 2:

But do tell me again how NASA is unnecessary now with the private market taking I over space.

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The bill didn’t come close to passing and failed in a vote of 9-86, with only four Republicans, four Democrats, and one Independent supporting the legislation.

How did your senator vote?
https://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_votes/vote1181/vote_118_1_00065.htm

The AUMF was used to invade not only Iraq but to intervene in other nations.
And our Iraq invasion was not a well-intentioned mistake but based on fabricated “intelligence”. Iraq infrastructure still is in terrible shape causing suffering by the Iraqi people.
I would rank the US Iraq invasion a crime. It is doubtful the ICC will charge our leaders like they have Putin.

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The invasion of Iraq was horrifying. The conduct of the war was criminal. Until Obama pulled troops out of the city fighting to hold the country from the desert but with much less violence.

If China did not get that oil, then China would have militarily needed to go and get it. The war may have slowed China’s need to militarize. We could have faced a major war with China. I know could have would have should have. Or if we can prevent it then prevent it…but you can not prove we needed to prevent it. So should we be at war with China instead? No proof we would be. But the time table is different now.

I love NASA, but it’s completely emotional. Back in the 60’s, my best friend and wanted to be astronauts. Our parents let us skip school so we could watch the launches on TV. We would send letters to NASA weekly, which they reinforced by sending us envelopes of very cool (at least to 13 year olds) booklets touting the space program.

Our dreams were crushed when a teacher told us we were already too tall to become astronauts.

I still have a box filled with the booklets which Ms. Wolf occasionally threatens to throw out. When I tell her “Over my dead body!”, she replies “Don’t tempt me.”

I hired our neighbor’s kid to be my food taster.

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Not fer nuthin’, but Russia appears to be fitting out and shipping west tanks from the Stalin area . Maybe they didn’t get the memo? It’s a new century guys.

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Old tanks recycle just as well as newer ones…

But they burn easier than newer ones!

HA! I owned a 1938 Packard for many years. That car (pre-war) was a tank! You could not kill that beautiful beast and when you rapped on a fender, the metal “bonged” - not like cars today.

I’d agree that you can most likely bring back the old tanks, but I also wonder how hard they are to maneuver and how much of a disadvantage they are when pitted against newer tanks with I’d imagine lots more bells and whistles.

'38Packard
- 1938 tech had a serious lack of bells and whistles :wink:

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Not really. The Soviets had few tanks that would rank among the better tanks of the era (the German Tigers were top of the list, and American tanks were next), and since then tanks developed with thicker armor (and new metallurgies), larger cannons, more powerful motors, and different designs with sloped armor to better deflect shells, etc.

Not that you can’t retrofit them, of course, but a bigger cannon needs bigger shells, which means you carry fewer of them unless you also redesign the ammo storage, which then impacts other things, and so on.

Again, it can be done, but it’s hardly the way you want to try to fight a war. I am surprised that Russia would be this desperate this quickly - just one year out - for a country which has always prided itself on its “vast and capable” military.

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Moscow needs a larger stash of arms to protect Moscow as things get stretched thin. Putin may know he needs to defend himself. That tipping point where the army can not defend Moscow will possibly come into view if this war drags on long enough.

Moscow can expand Russia’s borders but it is hard in the far reaches of Russia to gather the energy to attack Moscow. Unless the war depletes the army.

OTOH Putin is not much of a war time planner. More like pint sized ejit.

I don’t know much about the bells and whistles, but back in college I did an internship at an explosives R&D company. One of the projects I worked on was low vulnerability tank ammunition. I learned really a lot about tank ammo and tank armor. It is a surprisingly complex topic. The details are a bit foggy, but I still remember the basic principles. I am far from an expert, but I predict these T-55s will last up to several minutes vs. any NATO anti-tank weapon and probably not much longer verses standard Ukrainian T-72s.

Since the dawn of tanks themselves, there has been a race to equip tanks with more armor, and then develop bigger guns to defeat that armor. The 55/54’s gun isn’t powerful enough to defeat any NATO tank. It still could have a role in infantry support, however. But the T-55’s armor straight up isn’t thick enough or sophisticated enough to defeat any NATO anti-tank weapons.

The T-55 in the photo’s amor has been partially upgraded with explosive reactive armor, which can be effective. As the name suggests, ERA explodes when struck by an enemy round. This helps prevent armor penetration by dispersing the round’s energy away from the armor. But many modern anti-tank weapons like the Javelin have a two stage warhead. The first stage detonates the ERA leaving the second stage to penetrate the armor. So even the ERA upgrade (assuming they even have that much ERA) won’t be much help. Exploding ERA is very unpleasant for nearby infantry so it isn’t used on western tanks.

Philosophically, it is an interesting question if it makes sense to use a $250K Javelin to destroy a $29.95 T-55. But I think the main takeaway is that Russia down to using disposable armor on the battlefield. A desperation move because they don’t have anything else.

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Can I upgrade my amor?

DB2

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Sure. It’s the blue pill

Definitely not signed

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It appears Ukraine is using older Russian tanks too. In this story T-64.

Russia & Ukraine also use older tanks as mobile artillery weapon platforms.

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