It could be with regime change, The GOP has long argued that wars for for themselves. {{ LOL }}
intercst
3 Likes
Not only dear Stephen. The big boss said that Venezuelan oil fields belong to us! Well, we sent our oil company engineers and construction crews down to help exploitâŚer, I mean develop Venezuelaâs oil industry so I guess all the oil does belong to us afterall.
Pete
2 Likes
The question is, what were Standard Oil (ExxonMobil) and ConocoPhillips paid when the oil fields were nationalized?
A case about the nationalization of a gold mine was recently resolved after many years in the courts. Back in '08 a Canadian mining company, Crystallex, owned by a hedge fund, had a gold mine in Venezuela nationalized. They sued for $1.4 billion against the Venezuelan oil company PDVSA (know as CITGO in the US) with several refineries and 4000 retail outlets in the US.
After years of legal wrangling, in 2018 a judge ruled against Venezuela and said they had to pay $1.4 billion or give up their CITGO assets. Venezuela said it wasnât giving up any cash.
Amber Energy plans to hold on to Citgo refineries after takeover
https://www.reuters.com/legal/litigation/amber-energy-plans-hold-citgo-refineries-after-takeover-2025-12-01/
Elliott Investment Managementâs affiliate Amber Energy plans to keep Citgo Petroleumâs refineries, terminals and other connected assets once it takes over the Venezuela-owned U.S. refiner, following the completion of a court-ordered auction, sources close to the preparations said.
A Delaware court last week approved Amberâs $5.9 billion bid for Citgoâs parent PDV Holding and ordered the sale of PDVâs shares, wrapping up an auction aimed at compensating creditors for debt defaults and expropriations in Venezuela.
DB2
3 Likes
Certainly nationalization is a thing. But there are no circumstances in which the oil in the ground in Venezuela is the property of the United States. Certainly the companies may have some legal right to redress.
JimA
7 Likes
Aside from the obvious, I am fascinated by the implication that U.S. businesses (and their investments) are somehow the property of the U.S. Government. This is a dangerous road to travel. Itâs also probably inevitable given the mentality of the current U.S. administration.
6 Likes
A better questions is, will ExxonMobil and Conoco Phillips have to repay what theyâve been paid if their old assets are retaken from Venezuela?
Who wouldâve thunk that Dum-Dum Diplomacy would be so complicated?
4 Likes
Were they paid by Venezuela back in the day?
DB2
Settlements have been settled and payments have been paid. Iâm not certain if the ConocoPhillips settlement has been paid in full.
It really doesnât matter. If any payments have been made - what happens if we just retake stuff? Even if no payments have been made - what happens to the settlement decisions?
The devilâs in the detailsâŚor should we say the devil doesnât care about the details?
2 Likes
The Oil Companies were nationalized. The oil fields belonged to Venezuela as per its Constitution. The companies were licensed to exploit them. This is a major difference between Venezuelan and American law. In Venezuela you can only own the top of the land, not the mineral wealth that happens to exist underneath.
As I recall the nationalization was a reasonable settlement, back then Venezuela was a working democracy. I designed the accounting system that allowed Canalizaciones to nationalize the maintenance of the Orinoco navigation channel by Orinoco Mining, the US Steel mining subsidiary. The accounting system was designed to pay off Orinoco Mining itâs proper due.
That said, I think the oil nationalization was a mistake. The Venezuelan government had designed a system such that the oil companies could not underpay their taxes. Venezuela decided it could care less at what price the oil companies sold the oil, the tax was on the nominal price set by the government.
That said, PDVSA was initially managed by professionals trained by the foreign oil companies and did a great job until the government decided to use it as itâs piggy bank. Later Chavez fired all these professionals who got jobs elsewhere to develop oil projects in many foreign countries.
The problem is always the same, democracy living beyond its means.
The Captain
4 Likes
Interesting take. Or perhaps it is just corruption? Iâm not sure democracy had anything to do with it.
JimA
3 Likes
It certainly is not written in the democracy rules but it happens, what Complexity theory would call an âEmerging Property.â Put more bluntly, the need to buy votes.
The Captain
4 Likes
Again, Iâm not sure democracy had anything to do with it. Corruption happens in all the various kinds of government or lack thereof. It is far worse in authoritarian forms of government and/or no working government. The US is currently in the âno working governmentâ phase of the experiment.
JimA
8 Likes
By the Stephen Miller standard, the oil in Saudi Arabia also belongs to us since we developed it. Also Mexico, Kuwait, Iraq and Iran.
Iâm sure that theory is well supported in other parts of the world, right?
6 Likes
Or working differently. To stay with macroeconomics, the current GDPNow forecast is growth at 3.5%
DB2
1 Like
Agreed. Captain doesnât seem to understand this. Nor does he seem to understand that even rich people buy votes and buy government. Itâs not just the poor who do that.
As we slide further into authoritarianism, the corruption here is ramping up to levels weâve never seen. Seems to me democracy is NOT the problem.
5 Likes
I wonder what it would be if the inflation numbers were accurate. Probably not 3.5%.
3 Likes
I was rethinking my post, maybe I should not have focused on democracy as the road to eventual bankruptcy. Rome also did it via bread and circus. Itâs the old adage that the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
Corruption is a problem but at least there are laws to fight corruption. Not so good intentions, benefits all around, who can vote against these good deeds? Only misers would but the eventual outcome is bankruptcy. France seems to be in the late stages.
The hard to implement solution is to live below oneâs means.
The Captain
2 Likes