Proposal would get cease fire with Russia keeping captured territory. Ukraine does not join Nato. Ukraine security guaranteed by Europe not by Nato. US not involved. Troops from Europe on ground in Ukraine.
Will this work? Will it make lasting peace?
Next Putin asks Trump to leave Nato as a condition for peace!!
Isn’t that what Putin wanted all along? So Ukraine was mugged and Trump handed everything over.
Perhaps Ukraine is a failed military intervention just as Afghanistan was. Taliban have returned to power there after 20 years of US & NATO intervention.
Trump admires Putin, and sees him as the epitome of a “great leader”. I think a big part of all this is that simple.
Mussolini admired and even loved Hitler.
Europe, conceivably, might rise to the occasion, bypass NATO (at least for the time being), and back Ukraine.
The ongoing cost of constantly having to militarily face off with a Russia betting all it has on the collapse of “the West” (and that is Russia/Putin’s public stance) is far more expensive than pushing back hard now. For Europe it would have the added benefit of regaining control of their own destiny. Additionally, the Baltic states; backed by a fierce and prepared Finland and a very peeved Sweden (they far preferred neutrality and hoped to lower their defense budget further instead of having to join NATO and then getting betrayed by the USA); will not be willing to back down, because for them backing down now is close to suicidal.
Suddenly the world is very very much more trigger finger perilous, and just when we need sanity to take on the management of planetary problems.
Supply side econ in Central Europe with military budgets rising, of course Central Europe will continue on.
We are the ones cutting our military budget in the next two years.
Japan might even pony up as they need to test their new weapon systems.
Actually it was the other way around. Mussolini got to power in 1922 and declared himself dictator in 1925. Hitler admired his use of the blackshirts, from which the Not-Zzs brownshirts derived. Adolph modeled much of the Fascist state after what Mussolini had already achieved in Italy.
Mussolini privately thought Hitler was a simpleton, and did not agree with much of the racial animus towards Jews, among other things. Still, they were allied in a great effort against the democracies, and Adolph came to his rescue after Il Papa came to grief in North Africa. And it was the way Mussolini was beheaded and his body paraded around that convinced Hitler to commit suicide and have his body burned, so he would not suffer the same indignity.
…and Mussolini loved how Hitler had taken Mussolini’s tactics to the next level, “disciplined” the German people in a way Mussolini hopelessly dreamed of doing with Italians, and broke treaties and boundaries like a, well, true fascist.
They were quite a pair.
I wonder if this would get Europe to focus on its own defense.
DB2
Ukraine has a security guarantee from Russia. How is that working out?
Steve
This is an astonishingly good turn of events for Putin! I don’t think he could have imagined a better outcome than this.
The best part is the rest of Europe isn’t even a party of the negotiations. Initially, even Ukraine wasn’t going to be part of the negotiations. They’ve walked that back a little, but the deal thus far is the Putin keeps everything he’s taken and Europe (who again, isn’t a party) has to provide security arrangements for Ukraine.
That means a European, non-NATO organization will need to formed. And that will happen. Now that the US is shown to be unreliable and pro-Putin, Eastern and central European nations who are terrified of Putin will certainly create non-US security arrangements. That means there’s no real need for NATO anymore. If the US won’t defend Europe, why should Europe defend the US. Putin must be astonished at his good fortune. Banner day for the Russian empire, no question.
In my entire life I could never have imagined a US president groveling and capitulating before a foreign dictator like this. Interesting times, for sure.
We have seen this before. Remember that “very private” conversation in Helsinki, where there were no witnesses and no minutes kept?
Who’s the boss?
“In Washington there is a new sheriff in town, and under Donald Trump’s leadership, we may disagree with your views, but we will fight to defend your right to offer it in the public square agree or disagree,” Vance said, adding: “Dismissing people, dismissing their concerns shutting down media, shutting down elections … protects nothing…"
Unless you are the AP and still call it the Gulf of Mexico.
“When we see European courts canceling elections and senior officials threatening to cancel others, we ought to ask whether we’re holding ourselves to an appropriately high standard,” Vance said.
From over his left shoulder, Putin could be heard saying, “Ya! you tell em!”
Or you are the Kennedy Center, and want to put on a “Black History Month” pageant, or whatever it was, that TI deemed unacceptable.
Steve
The war mongers are so angry that peace is within reach.
Americans want peace.
People should feel free to go and fight in Ukraine if you like it so much. Take your family with you.
LOL, OK, I will come and claim 20% of your real estate and then lets see if you are so willing to settle for peace.
It isn’t realistic for you to get it back.
No thanks, they live next to a war monger who’s being enabled to continue war mongering. Self awareness isn’t your strong suit.
There are no Americans fighting in Ukraine that do not wish to fight. Your being silly trying to tell another nation that they do not have the right to defend themselves.
Oh he would give it up gladly if you promised not to do it again LOL.
Ukraine wants their land back.
This is not appeasement. Appeasement is when you negotiate for something and get something in return, even if that something turns out to be a worthless piece of paper. At least for a moment or two you had hope that you achieved something.
“This” is simply a giveaway. There is nothing negotiated. There is nothing coming back from the other side. This is full out capitulation, without even the slightest prospect of Ukraine achieving anything that it might want. Putin rolled into a peaceful country, has taken farming land and industry, and now gets a full pardon and gets to keep everything. No remuneration, no reparations, not so much as an apology for all the death and destruction.
So no, not “appeasement.” Yes, “full capitulation” to a monster.
