Turmoil in Italy

Investment Analysis Clubs Macro Economic Trends and Risks
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I think the solutions are simple in principle, just difficult to execute.

I’ve had the good fortune of traveling in both Venice and Kyoto. Tourists are much better behaved in Japan and I think that is in large part because the Japanese are much better behaved than most any other people.

When Japanese cities are so obviously clean of litter and trash, it is psychologically more difficult for tourists to litter. When the Japanese bow and smile in most every social interaction, it is psychologically more difficult for tourists to be rude. When the subways are extremely quiet with no phone use and the Japanese speaking in whispers, it is psychologically more difficult for tourists to be yelling on their cell.

If motivating good tourist behavior by example doesn’t work, then enforce the rules (see Singapore). To reduce tourist numbers, increase the tourist tax. NYC has a 15% tourist tax, which adds a big chunk to hotel costs. Venice charges tourists all of 5 euros. Raise that to 50 euros/day and let’s see what happens.

The problem is that the tourist traps that are doing the most whining about tourists greatly want all those tourist dollars. Greed over quality of life.

I admit to not being particularly sympathetic.

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I strongly agree with your posts observations, except this last part underlines the actual problem. The noun phrase “tourist traps” is a false subject, as there is no mental entity or being doing both this whining and this wanting. What those tourist traps do have is a politics that is not functioning well, usually because making fistfuls of money by a few (mostly rich) trumps the lives of many (mostly not rich), and the degree and rapidity of change has left the citizens baffled and trapped.

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Most likely … because of capitalism, if there are only 200 allowed at any one time, the 200 will likely migrate to become the most expensive 200 that can support the demand at that price level. Any tourist that can only afford below that level will go elsewhere. Or worse, they will stay at an airbnb a few towns over (that has no 200 rule because they want the additional revenue) and then drive in for day trips. That’ll cause traffic, and the locals will complain about that traffic.

Then the city council can add a toll on the road in, and set the level of toll high enough to discourage the number of tourists who come and clog the roads. Locals can get a preferred rate on the toll road. But then entrepreneurs will setup bus services that shuttle tourists in from beyond the toll road. Then the locals will complain about all the tourists clogging up the shops, the restaurants, etc.

And then, the city council can create a headcount toll for all those tourists on the shuttles to discourage some of the folks coming and clogging up the streets, and filling up all the seats at the restaurants, coffeehouses, and ice cream shoppes.

There’s always a way to discourage people (tourists) coming to an area. Most city councils (or other local governments) will give lip service to such things to make their constituents happy, but will very rarely do anything real … because they WANT the tourists and the money they bring.

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Sure enough. I recently spent a couple of nights in Rochester, NY to visit the George Eastman house and museum. Also visited an art museum, stayed at a hotel, ate out and probably dropped $600 into the local economy.

DB2

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Bt,

Our family just recently visited Venice, and we are planning a trip to Japan for next summer. I’m trying to get as many ideas for “must hit” things to do for that trip. Any suggestions? Obviously OT for METAR, but perhaps Wendy might allow it….

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I wonder if tourism to experience richly rewarding places - as a thing that people do - has simply become more accessible and in demand?

Prior to the pandemic, international tourism had basically tripled in the last 30 years (rising from about 550 million international arrivals to around 1.8 billion). International travel is now something that more and more people have access to, and have more and more desire to engage in.

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Definitely a gem, but I haven’t been there in years.

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Generally speaking and with lots of obvious exceptions, tourism is a pretty good industry to have. There aren’t giant smokestacks belching out pollution, no chemical factories dumping stuff in the rivers, no giant trucks lumbering through the streets full of ore or concrete or finished steel beams and whatnot.

Tourism provides thousands of jobs (not all of them great, admittedly, but some are), encourages civic improvements, and helps diversify local economies. Of course there are downsides, sometimes severe (giant cruise ships overloading small towns as people rush off the boats, for example), but overall it’s a relatively clean industry - and one which allows local merchants and government to profit off those who don’t live there, adding money to the local economy which wouldn’t otherwise be there.

I am sympathetic when it’s overdone, and to the “ugly tourist meme” which is occasionally true, but overall I don’t get the angst about tourism. Given lots of choices, it would be right up there among my selections for “good economic ideas”.

Then again, I’ve never been to Branson, so there’s that.

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Not only is tourism a “clean” business, but tourists generally have pocketbooks that are wider open than locals. For example, while a local might order the daily special and water and skip dessert at a local restaurant, tourists will often splurge and order the steak, a beer or a mixed drink, and dessert.

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Tough question because much depends on what you all are interested in. My kids for example loved the food section found in all the big department stores in Tokyo. Takes up most of a floor and the range of food choices is remarkable and high quality. My favorite place was the Kenrokuen Garden in Kanazawa, about a 2-3 hour bullet train ride from Tokyo, but then I like plants and that Zen vibe. Lots of walking though, which can get hot in the summer. But it is a bit off the tourist trail so less crowded than most places.

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Kyoto is the place to go for first timers who want “must hits”. There is the golden temple, the temple with all the inari gates, and the monkey sanctuary (long uphill walk). Would suggest finding a half day guided tour for your first day in Kyoto to get your bearings.

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Most any guidebook place you go in Kyoto is going to be great except for the crowds. I recommend starting the day as early as possible. As I said, I really enjoyed the contemplative Zen gardens but the atmosphere is compromised by (when we were there) all these European visitors.

Would definitely recommended investing in a Kaiseki dinner (set course) where the multiple courses are coordinated by flavor, texture, and smells. Expensive but if one savors the moment well worth it. Again, lots of people so you have to make reservations early for restaurants during prime meal hours, several days early if you go some place with great Yelp reviews. But then you know this since you’ve been to Venice. Probably wasted on kids though who would probably prefer Wagyu beef on a stick or something similar (can get this at the multi-block semi-open-air Nishiki food market).

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OT - Japan Trip for BT
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Thanks, bt!

Definitely we’re interested in the food - and hitting the big department stores is probably a better idea than the kaiseki, given that we’re traveling with a 12-year-old and a finicky eater 17-year-old. They’ll be happier with yakitori and ramen than the ritual of dining traditions - though my wife and I might ditch them in the hotel for one such meal.

I think they’d be very interested in the most modern aspects of Japan. Both are fascinated by the bits of Japanese youth culture that find their way here, are interested in tech, and my daughter is deeply into fashion. Don’t know if you ran across those sorts of things anywhere. We’ll obviously pull the guide books and do some internet research, but nothing beats hearing from someone that was recently there.

I’ve heard DisneySea is not to be missed if you’re into theme parks, which my son definitely is - so we might do that. The guided tour is a great suggestion - we did that in Rome on our first day and it was a wonderful start.

Since we’re first timers, the “obvious” choices are Tokyo-Kyoto- Osaka. Is there a fourth place that you experienced that you really loved?

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@albaby1 this is an interesting topic. Please post OT instead of burying it deep in a long thread.

Wendy

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It raises a very important question, one which is rather difficult to answer:

Who is a place for?

I run into this a lot in my development practice - “who is the city for?” or “who is this neighborhood for?” Is it for the people who actually live in it? Is it for the people who work in it but don’t live in it? Is it for people who visit, or for tourists? Is it for people who just pass through it? Whose interests should the city or neighborhood be designed to meet, and what happens when there are different and conflicting interests among the groups?

Many cities have tourist attractions - areas or institutions that are specifically designed for or are intended for people who don’t live in the city to use. A national museum, a big landmark or government building, or some historic structure. There is deliberate intention to make that area accessible to, and used by, out-of-towners. Those places won’t cause much angst.

But when the tourists start flocking to things that the locals believe are there to serve the locals’ needs, things get more angst-y. Because what locals want/need from a neighborhood or commercial area or restaurants/nightlife will often be different from what tourists want or need. Or they’ll use it differently. Or the facility will only have certain capacity, and if the tourists are using it the locals can’t. Etc.

With the rise of Airbnb and vacation rentals, you see (IMHO) an increase in the number of tourists who want to experience things in a city or place that aren’t the tourist things, and rather experience the city or place the way a local does. Which really ratchets up the conflict over who a place is for.

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While it’s nice to think that a place is “only for the locals” the reality is is that every place needs an economic engine of some sort. Hospitals, universities, factories, corporate headquarters, banking, there has to be something to bring in new money. You can only circulate the same dollar so many times before somebody sends it to Amazon (Sears in the old days) or a magazine subscription or you buy a box of cereal and part of the cost goes back to Battle Creek.

Tourism is a pretty good way to bring in outside dollars, provide employment, diversify an economy, and generally keep the local ethic and environment up. As I noted upthread there are lots of negative experiences, too: too much traffic or crowded favorite restaurants or thoughtless people discarding McDonald’s boxes in the parking lot - but given a whole host of alternatives, tourism is generally a pretty desirable industry to have.

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What! And you didn’t spend time in the Pittsford Wegmans???

Shame on you. Double shame on you!!!

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Sure. But people get upset when the economic engine leaves the part of the place they think it should be (the tourist attractions) and starts coming into their neighborhood - or everywhere.

We see the same dynamic with gentrification. It can be very economically beneficial for a place to have all kinds of residents from all kinds of backgrounds and income levels - even beneficial for the less-rich residents. But if you have a neighborhood that’s historically been the home of…oh, I don’t know, lower-income Albabians, and then the rich people start moving in there…. Well, suddenly, all the traditional Albabian shops and Albabian restaurants and Albabian service shops start to go away, replaced by shops and services and restaurants that cater to the new people. So that neighborhood feels like it’s less for the Albabians, and more for someone else. And people don’t like that.

Same thing with tourists. If a neighborhood that didn’t have a lot of tourists starts getting a lot of tourists in it, then the fabric of the neighborhood changes. The shops and services and restaurants that used to cater to locals end up getting replaced with things that cater to tourists. And the locals tend not to like it - and arguably are hurt by it.

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Kinda like what’s happening in Mexico City.

It’s like Gringos chasing the Mexican Dream. Isn’t it ironic, don’t you think?

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It seems the targeting of tourists is turning into violence.

Nan Palmero was at a rehearsal dinner in Mexico City’s trendy Roma Norte neighborhood, ahead of a wedding of two American friends, when he heard a “rumbling” outside.

From the restaurant’s second story, Palmero described seeing a large group of people moving through the streets, some holding placards, shouting “Gringos leave.”

He later learned that demonstrators smashed restaurant windows and damaged vehicles, including the new car of his friends’ wedding planner — a local resident — he said.

“They wrecked her car, they smashed a window, they ripped off a mirror, they spray-painted the side of it. It was really pretty nasty,” he said.

Palmero, an avid traveler from San Antonio, Texas, said he had heard that an influx of digital nomads and foreign tourists had pushed up prices in some of the city’s most popular neighborhoods.

But he was not aware that residents were organizing demonstrations, like those that he had read about in Barcelona and other parts of Europe, he said.

The protesters — angry about the city’s long-standing problems with overtourism — used thick police-style tape to block hotel entrances and sidewalk cafes in the small neighborhood of Barceloneta in a symbolic effort to close the establishments.

The crowd, which numbered some 3,000 people, according to local media, also marched holding a large banner demanding that city officials “decrease tourists now.”

Hotels in the city quadrupled from 1990 to 2023 to accommodate a rush of travelers, which surged from 1.7 million to 7.8 million during the same period

The city also buckles under the weight of the Barcelona Cruise Port as day-trippers descend on the city by the thousands. The port processed some 2.2 million passengers in 2023, up from 560,000 in 2000

So whom does the local politicians listen to? Those benefiting from tourism or the local working class being priced out of their apartments? Could it be that the local politicians are personally benefiting monetarily from real estate developers and traveling corporations?

I suppose the local police will be called out with truncheons to beat the locals into submission because if tourists learn that they will be targeted they very well might eschew visiting such locales.

There needs to be a balance between tourism and the needs of affordable housing.

Santa Fe tourism does provide low level jobs [retail-restaurant-motel jobs] but those employees cannot afford to live in Santa Fe. They have to commute to their jobs. The same has occurred in Durango CO & Jerome AZ. I have visited those towns once. meh. Tourist traps all. But then nature is what appeals to me; be it desert, forest or mountains. And tourism can ruin US National Park experience also. Giant RVs with their generators running to keep the A/C cooling or powering their satellite to pull in TV. In effect buying a several hundred thousand object to bring their living rooms to the outdoors. I just don’t understand it. But as Mammy said:”It takes all kinds”. And times change; but not always for the better.

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What percentage of the people don’t like it? If a large percentage don’t like it, then they won’t sell their properties to the new people. And if a small percentage don’t like it, then the others will sell to the new people. The responsibility of keeping a neighborhood mostly a certain group of people rests SOLELY with the people (that certain group) who live in that neighborhood!

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Why not? They might not like it, but they’re personally getting the financial compensation to offset their dislike. Privatize the gain, socialize the losses. And often the people who own the assets in the neighborhood aren’t the people who live in the neighborhood: many of these neighborhoods are occupied by renters, not people living in owner-occupied units.

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