UPST earnings

Which share count do you use?

From today’s press release
Basic Weighted-Average Share Count of approximately 78.0 million shares
Diluted Weighted-Average Share Count of approximately 94.9 million shares

I always use fully diluted, but we also need to remember that the the reported share counts on the income statement are a weighted average for the period (either 3 months, 6, months, 9 months, or 12 months). Using a 3-month period will give the most accurate share count because most companies increase their share count over time. I also pay attention to any equity financing by the company. For instance, UPST raised money in Q2: 2.3M shares that closed on 15April. So that means that the 3-month period of Q2 only counted 5/6 of the period or 1.917M shares; that means that 383K shares are there but not counted. In this case, I’m not going to worry about the 383K share difference in my calculations. If the equity raise had closed near the end of the quarter then the weighted average of the additional shares would have thrown off the number by more.

GR

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Over $1B in vehicles sold through Prodigy platform in Q2’21 ($800M sold in Q1)

While it’s clear that UPST has yet to monetize lending thru Prodigy, surely Prodigy has meaningful quarterly revenue, no? It’s software is used by a lot of dealers and that footprint expanded somewhat dramatically as well.

Trying to make sure we don’t have a Twilio situation here!

Upstart will become my longest holding at this mornings open, and trying to understand more as I consider adding more. TIA.

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Here is what I use to calculate GAAP gross margin for UPST:
First, we shall take the data from official Q2 report: So GAAP GM = (193,946 - 24,164) / 193,946 = 87.5% (I think their Non-GAAP GM is higher but it was not reported and cannot find the clue)

Zoro – this is an important point, and perhaps this serves as an opportunity for us to clarify their contribution margin (GM), and how it differs to the more conventional GM that we’re used to.

Upstart’s S1 states that “we incur variable costs in the form of borrower acquisition costs and borrower verification and servicing costs…borrower acquisition cost and borrower verification and servicing costs are highly correlated with the number of loans transacted on our platform and trended upwards on an annual basis.A small number of loans were sourced directly through bank partners in which we received no referral fee and incurred no acquisition costs, this category of loans generated a 67% contribution margin…the rising level automation and continued improvements on our conversion rate achieved through our increasingly sophisticated risk models and our evolving channel mix have contributed to improving loan unit economics at a time. We further believe that bank-sourced loans can be an important driver of volume growth in the medium-term future; to the extent we are able to increase the number of loans sourced directly through our bank partners, our contribution margin would be positively impacted.”

So, a couple of takeaways from me, but I would appreciate a correction if my interpretation is not accurate:
(1) CM gives us the unit economics of their loan product, while GM provides a company’s overall economics

(2) Partnerships for Upstart are important not only because of the net new revenue creation, but also because their higher-margin nature. Plus the network effects that they create through the optimization of their machine learning models! So it’s like a triple whammy

(3) The power of their business model can be seen through their GM evolution. As Zoro stated, GM last quarter was 87.0%; yet GM was only 50.2% in Q2’20. Sure, that was peak Covid quarter, so let’s take last quarter’s revenue instead, which is 85.0%. That 200 bps improvement sequentially! And we clearly see the trend that their algorithms create on their financials – more loans processed scales revenue by an order of magnitude greater than their costs

Sure, we might not get some of the metrics we look for in this business model as SJO mentioned. And we’ve seen how their revenue can diminish overnight during an economic catastrophe. But it’s important for us to appreciate the differences in their business model so that we can better interpret new information (i.e. signing more bank partners, etc).

We could argue that it took a pandemic for the market to re-rate the multiples of cloud companies, as the world realized that they essentially are the central nervous system of the economy. Well, its clear that Upstart was heavily mispriced at IPO, and it make take quite some time for the market to understand how to value these sorts of businesses. Surely there will be similar companies to Upstart that will IPO in the coming years, and the more we learn about Upstart, the more prepared we’ll be to take advantage of the market’s underappreciation of their disruption.

-RMTZP
Protect the identity of this board and maximize your learning https://discussion.fool.com/for-board-newcomers-and-oldtimers-34… before participating.

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Jon, You nailed it with that WOW! Since the 1000+% improvement yoy is partly due to the COVID quarter, how about looking at sequential results. 194 million up from 121 million. That’s just up 60.3% sequentially!!!

The 3rd quarter of 2020 also exhibits some covid effects. So next quarters comparisons will also be a bit skewed.

What I wonder about is how the market will react when the Y/Y comparisons drop significantly below the 1000% gains. Or doesn’t it matter? Its clear that sequential performance will matter very much.I doubt they can manage 60% in Q3. If they beat guidance by 6% or so then we could see sequential growth in the high teens. Not bad normally. But its not a 'normal" situation.

After the recent runup in the neighborhood of 50% Upstart is now my largest holding. Thinking of trimming.

cheers

draj

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If they beat guidance by 6% or so then we could see sequential growth in the high teens.

Draj,

Do you realize how silly that sounds? Last quarter they estimated 155 at the midpoint for this quarter and they came in at 194, beating by 25%. Why would a company that beat last quarter by 25%, and grew by 60% sequentially(!!!) beat this quarter by only 6%. In fact they grew sequentially this quarter from $121 million to $194 million, growing $73 million sequentially (!!!), and you are throwing up a boogey man of “If they beat guidance by 6% or so…”

In fact they also underestimated yearly revenue so much last quarter, even though they raised their estimate by $100 million from 500 to 600, which was 20%, that they raised it again this quarter by $150 million (!!!) which was 25% of that previous estimate of 600. And you are talking about “If they beat guidance by 6% or so…”

And this is your largest position and you know so little about it???

Saul

45 Likes

Why would a company that beat last quarter by 25%, and grew by 60% sequentially(!!!) beat this quarter by only 6%

To be fair to Draj, this would be on par with their Q1 beat. In Q4 '20, they guided for revenue of $112-118M. They reported revenue of $121M in Q1, which equates to a 5.5% beat at the midpoint. I agree with you Saul, it is silly to assume they will only beat by 6% next quarter after everything you described, however, it is odd for a company to beat by 5.5% one quarter and then 25.1% the next. It certainly makes it difficult to forecast. It makes me wonder what the big change was this quarter for them to beat as big as they did. The question is- is 6% the norm, or is 25% the norm? Likely somewhere in between, I would have to think.

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To be fair to Draj, this would be on par with their Q1 beat. In Q4 '20, they guided for revenue of $112-118M. They reported revenue of $121M in Q1, which equates to a 5.5% beat at the midpoint. I agree with you Saul, it is silly to assume they will only beat by 6% next quarter after everything you described, however, it is odd for a company to beat by 5.5% one quarter and then 25.1% the next. It certainly makes it difficult to forecast. It makes me wonder what the big change was this quarter for them to beat as big as they did. The question is- is 6% the norm, or is 25% the norm? Likely somewhere in between, I would have to think.

That’s a fair question. Why the beat in first quarter was 5.5% vs 25% this quarter.

Last quarter they reported on May 11, which was 40 days into the second quarter with 50 days in the quarter still to go. The quarter before that they reported late March and they had fair visibility how the quarter would look like, so they could be more precise in their estimates. With second quarter they had to be more conservative to be safer.

I was actually anticipating a higher beat this quarter. And based on the same reasoning I think a higher beat is more likely next quarter.

In fact we can reasonably speculate further on the premise behind the guidance.

This quarter was 194 million. So monthly average is 194/3.0 = 64.66 million per month.
Since the revenue is sequentially increasing monthly my best bet is it probably something like this:
April - 53 million
May - 64 million
June - 77 million
July - 87 million ?

Multiplying April by 3, gives 160 million, which was in the ball park of their guidance last quarter.
Probably this quarter guidance they multiplied June by 3 ?, given the uncertainty of covid and delta ?

To be fair we don’t know the exact monthly numbers, so take the above with a pinch of salt. But my bet is they will continue to beat by large numbers.

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Regarding the big beat compared to Q1, here is a possibility:

  • They increased conversions from 17 to 22 to 24. That’s HUGE - 41% from 17 to 24. That means they are getting 41% more conversions, not 7%. If I were a conservative person, I would not want to have relied on that initial increase and would have forecasted based on the old conversion rate just to be safe and make sure it wasn’t a fluke.

  • They increased traffic to the funnel significantly via their marketing efforts.

In other words, their beat could have been a surprise even to them. That’s not to say they didn’t have visibility into this, I’m sure they did, but more in the “pinch me, are we sure that this is real?” sort of way.

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From the conf call:

"Since the beginning of the year, we have doubled the number of dealerships, AKA rooftops using Prodigy. And in Q2, more than $1 billion in vehicles were sold through Prodigy. "

“And we are – we care most – I mean there is actually some bits of revenue that come from the use of that product, that’s not really the long-term plan for monetization. It’s, of course, through the offers of credit through it.”

“…because Prodigy… is growing very quickly and has done that with very, very modest sized teams. And we definitely believe it makes a lot of sense for us to invest more in that. So that’s happening right now. And we’re tracking very aggressive goals for a number of rooftops that are signed up every quarter, and that’s something we’re watching very carefully.”

How much revenue is Prodigy? It’s bugging me that they rather dismissed it as not being the focus in the long term. How much is “some bits”?

Various sources show $5M to $30M in annual sales. Then if they were able to double Prodigy in the quarter? They seem to have doubled the number of roofs (i.e. licenses).

I get that the end-game for Prodigy is enabling Auto Loans. But I’d really like to have a clearer view of what “some bits” were so that I was clear how much UPST grew in organic ways.

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I get that the end-game for Prodigy is enabling Auto Loans. But I’d really like to have a clearer view of what “some bits” were so that I was clear how much UPST grew in organic ways.

Directly from the CFO on the call: “And with respect to auto, we continue to have no meaningful contribution to the economics in fiscal-year 2021.”

Since that’s been the message on auto every quarter since the purchase was made, it’s reasonable to assume Upstart’s growth has been ALL organic for comparison purposes. Which, of course, makes it even more impressive. Do you interpret it differently based on the info you have on Prodigy?

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Directly from the CFO on the call: “And with respect to auto, we continue to have no meaningful contribution to the economics in fiscal-year 2021.”

Since that’s been the message on auto every quarter since the purchase was made, it’s reasonable to assume Upstart’s growth has been ALL organic for comparison purposes. Which, of course, makes it even more impressive. Do you interpret it differently based on the info you have on Prodigy?

Is the CFO talking about Auto Loans, which they’ve yet to monetize? Or is he lumping in Prodigy. It’s not crystal clear, which is my point.

Prodigy was a bigger business (when they bought it) than “no meaningful contribution” is what I believe to be true, with no facts to back that up. Prodigy is pervasive at car dealers. It was well established. I can’t imagine it would be less than a $10M business before UPST doubled it.

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That’s a fair question. Why the beat in first quarter was 5.5% vs 25% this quarter.

Not unheard of volatility in earnings projection terms. What seems to be asked here, is, what’s behind the “failure” to consistently forecast quarterly earnings by a company that is growing quite fast.

One thing is the complexity of the task - the function box that spits out a final number has a significant number of inputs.

The other is management’s philosophy about projections and which version to share with the public.

The result (public forecast + or - actual) = earnings difference. Generally companies like to undershoot on earnings forecasts, because our culture likes that. So if we see them overpromise we tend to think they don’t know what they are doing, even in companies that are making money. Here we have a “beat” that is 25%, so good (in our culture).

Ultimately, however, until a number comes out and is history, spending too much time on forecasted earnings can make you manic-depressive. We now have the numbers for the quarter and they are good. If the company does a reasonably good job of telling you where they are going, that is another good thing - they seem to be hitting their targets.

In summary, very pleased with the numbers, their earnings projections don’t change my views, it seems there are multiple untapped significant markets waiting (autos, homes), so…Long UPST. Thanks to all on the board.

Cheers,

Bill

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however, it is odd for a company to beat by 5.5% one quarter and then 25.1% the next. It certainly makes it difficult to forecast.

Thank you major fool. This was precisely my observation. Could it be that the rate of growth would revert to a level comparable to prior quarters? So I posed a hypothetical. Its pretty clear what folks think of that!

cheers

draj

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Prodigy’s estimated annual revenue is $19.5 million. Thus when the CFO says no material contribution that includes Prodigy revenues + auto loan revenues.

https://growjo.com/company/Prodigy_Software_Inc.#revenue-fin…

It may take longer than we’d like for the company to move the needle on Prodigy and auto loans. Future upside surprise we can hope.

Until then the core business is “Zooming” on us. This is like the Zoom numbers of 2020 and it is nearly all organic personal loans.

Rode and sold out near the top during the short squeeze a few months ago. Then bought back in w those profits. This time around, however, not selling as the price rise seems much more based on fundamentals.

The auto business is hardly a given and may take longer than we want to develop (but this company does things fast, so would love to see upside surprise there) but it’s core business is fine on its own for now.

Tinker

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So, Prodigy WAS $20M at acquisition!
And Upstart essentially doubled the number of Prodigy customers last quarter.
Doesn’t that imply that there could be $20-40M of Prodigy revenue in the latest numbers?

That’s the first Q of those numbers being in there, so worth consideration. The good news is that Prodigy is also growing at crazy rates.

Until then the core business is “Zooming” on us. This is like the Zoom numbers of 2020 and it is nearly all organic personal loans.

Tinker,

Yep, the latest (Q2) earnings results also reminded me of ZM last year. One difference is that the magnitude of the UPST revenue growth was larger than the magnitude of ZM’s growth in 2020. ZM had three quarters were revenue grew >350% (355-370%). By comparison, UPST grew revenue more than 1000% last Q. Yes, that comparison isn’t exactly fair because UPST’s revenue fell off sharply in Q2 2020 so perhaps without that COVID-19 falloff in 2020, UPST may have grown “only” 500% last Q.

The bigger and much more important difference between UPST now and ZM of last year is that ZM’s growth of 350% was a one-time step up function that then formed more of a plateau (i.e. didn’t fall back down but stayed at that elevated level). UPST is totally different as the company has a ton of available growth still ahead of it. I think we can expect (if their AI continues to produce borrowers with lower default rates than standard underwriting) UPST’s growth to remain much higher than ZM’s was after their COVID-19 induced quantum leap.

GR

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So, Prodigy WAS $20M at acquisition!
And Upstart essentially doubled the number of Prodigy customers last quarter.
Doesn’t that imply that there could be $20-40M of Prodigy revenue in the latest numbers?

The writer said $20 million ANNUALLY. That means $5 to $10 million in a quarter of $194 million in revenue, not $20 to $40.

Saul

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I like the ZM comparisons, but let’s also not forget that ZM put up 70% sequential growth in Q1 then followed that up with 100% sequential growth, mostly with recurring revenue, while it became a household name brand. Yes, it was a one time bump that mostly just allowed them to fast forward their business, but those numbers were more impressive to me.

I still worry that UPST could eventually run into another event that craters revenue at least temporarily. While ZM may no longer be growing as fast, I doubt we’re going to see declining revenue for a long time.

I hope UPST takes this as a challenge and puts up $400M this quarter :stuck_out_tongue:

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I followed this thread and all the other UPST ones during this amazing week and just finished rereading the whole thing again, and going through the earnings call transcript yet again.

Upstart was my #3 position last week. It is now, after its own fantastic growth and some adds, the #1 (with a great distance from #2), at over 20%, with a cost base under $100 per share.

There’s an inner voice repeating a lot of the bull points in my head constantly (and new ones keep coming up like the Head of Mortgage Product hire just today). I’ve been trying to see the bear case but can’t seem to look past the fog of optimism right now. Considering how to raise capital to go in further, rather than trimming.

Thanks again to everybody who talked this one up here on the board this year, especially Saul who really caught my attention with his enthusiasm, and whoever it was that explained clearly the difference between this one and Lemonade, I think that was the lightbulb moment where I was really reeled in.

If anyone that’s not wholeheartedly in this one yet would care to enunciate their bear case, that’d be great.

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From my hours of reading, the most legitimate bear cases:

  1. concentration risk at Credit Karma and Cross River Bank. According to Jonwayne’s recent post on the 10Q filing, CRB concentration has reduced only modestly (70% to 62% of revenue yoy), and Credit Karma is unchanged. To my eyes, concentration remains significant but I expect it’ll decrease as the new bank partners get fully onboarded. I imagine we’ll all be watching this closely. In the past months, new bank partner announcements may not have impacted the stock price, but any such announcements will certainly impact my conviction level.

  2. possibility of new regulations restricting AI usage, or the model disadvantaging protected classes. Several posters with banking experience mentioned this as their top concern. Now, Upstart has been very proactive in addressing these concerns through the No Action letter and its subsequent renewal. Upstart reports that the AI actually benefits protected classes by leveling the playing field (article link below).

This is interesting. Perhaps what some consider a top risk, I see as a top moat. If Upstart can navigate this regulation issue and continue to receive approval such as No Action Letters, it only increases their head start. Its a hurdle for any newcomer including big banks.

Jonwayne said a study will be published in October that further analyzes this issue (thank you Jon and others for all the DD).

I have a concentration risk of my own (in the form of UPST shares) and don’t plan on selling anytime soon.

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/fico-scores-leave-out-peop…

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