USA continues destroying the US dollar

Exactly what my OP was about. Not all the world has Western ‘values’ and this will hasten the search for a dollar alternative.

When did North Vietnam or Iraq attack the USA?

So Divitias, should we allow Russia to attack Ukraine? Do we allow them to continue to attack all their neighbors because of their insecurities. At what border should we stand up against them? Germany?


When did Germany attack the United States. Maybe the United States shouldn’t have been involved in WW2 also.


iirc, Germany declared war on the US, after the US declared war against Japan, which did attack US territory.

Technically, Germany did attack the US prior to December 41, by attacking US Navy ships.

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Technically Vietnam did attack the United States in the Gulf of Tonkin. Here we go. :smile:

After North Vietnamese torpedo boats alledgedly attacked the U.S.S. Maddox and U.S.S. Turner Joy in the Gulf of Tonkin, President Johnson ordered the retaliatory bombing of military targets in North Vietnam. Congress soon passed the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution, which gave Johnson broad war-making powers.

Vietnam War | High Point, NC.

On 11th December 1941 Germany declared war on the USA:

It’s not a question of ‘allowing’ them to. I have (I believe) some understanding of why they have done so.

The USA has never held back from attacking countries if they see it as being in their own interest so why shouldn’t others? I don’t know for sure but I’d put money on the USA holding the record for bombing other countries between 1945 and 1999

The US is said to have been involved in 32 distinct and separate bombing campaigns on 24 different countries between 1945 and 1999.

Pretty impressive record isn’t it?

  1. Critical to remember that Russia joined Germany as an ally in starting European WWII, invading and divvying up Poland.

  2. The greatest level of death in the European theater of WWII was Ukraine, as neither Stalin nor Hitler had the least interest in the Ukrainian people except as slaves to their own ambitions, and so “Mother Russia suffer” -ing was statistically mostly conquered stepchild Ukraine suffering.
    See Bloodlands - Wikipedia

  3. NATO and US military in Europe were dissipating after the dissolution of the Soviet (ex-Czarist) Empire, until hostile actions by Putin’s revanchist gangster wannabe empire against the Baltic States caused legitimate fears. They escaped, but Georgia and Armenia did not, and are both still struggling.

  4. Ukraine’s crux move towards freedom was NOT the “Orange Revolution” that did have limited support from the USA, but rather the later “Maidan Revolution”, Revolution of Dignity - Wikipedia, which was spontaneous, unplanned, and initially led by youngsters, one of whom was a friend of mine. (He was a gay kid who had picked up the threads of the earlier Soviet era’s struggle for gay rights that I had helped fund in my gay activist days, and he had contacted me).

  5. I happen to have, from adventures decades ago, a lot of Russian friends of various ages, both inside and outside of Russia. They are all in grief and turmoil, some are patriotically (mistakenly) supporting the war, but most are not (and are staying silent and keeping their heads down, but two have fled via Georgia). I also have Ukrainian friends, and every single one of them remains ferociously determined that Ukraine will finally break free from what they see as Ukraine long suffering under foreign colonial rule, whether Turkic, Polish-Lithuanina, Hapsburg, or Russian, and at whatever the cost. (If you want to limit bloodshed and suffering then best support Ukraine so it ends faster)

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That one was as questionable as was the Maine blowing up in Havana harbor. US engagement in WWI was the result of a chain of events. U-Boats had been sinking US freighters, until President Wilson warned the Germans to stop “unrestricted submarine warfare”,which they did, for a while. In early 17, the Germans resumed sinking US freighters, without warning. The last straw was when Germany tried to induce Mexico to invade the US, to keep the US Army tied down and too stretched to intervene in Europe.

There was no doubt about the authenticity of the Zimmerman message. Zimmerman admitted to the press that he had sent it, then talked about it openly in the Reichstag

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Critical to remember that following the dissolution of the USSR, Ukraine was the third largest holder of nuclear weapons in the world, holding about 1/3 of the engorged Soviet inventory. They allowed all of them to be transported out of Ukraine and signed the Nuclear Disarmament Pact after the United State guaranteed their security from invasion by any other hostile nation.

That seemed a good deal then, but looking at the recent history I suspect no other nation will ever make that bargain again, and we will have more countries with nukes, not fewer.


iirc, Russia also guaranteed Ukraine’s territorial integrity.



steve and goofyhoofy

Yes, it is useful to hold that freely and openly negotiated and signed treaties matter. Thanks for poking me. Should have been in my absurdly long post.

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I’m not pro-Russian and anti-Ukraine. Just trying to give some balance to what has happened.

When I was in Russia they were still trying to work out the death rate from WW2. I was given a figure of almost 30 million or about 15% of the population in 1940. They will never get an accurate figure but they are somewhat obsessed about trying:

If the USA’s population is 360 million then 15% works out at just over 50 million deaths. This might create a lasting impression.

I wonder what the USA would do if China spent billions overthrowing the government of Mexico and turning Mexico into a Chinese puppet state?

We would have another Cuba I would imagine!

Interestingly, when the US SecState was in Mexico last week, the Mexican President noted that USian sanctions on Cuba and Venezuela are helping create the economic conditions that the citizens of those countries are trying to escape.

There was a former Mexican ambassador on the BBC news last night, talking about the massive streams of migrants making their way through Mexico to the US. As others on this board have noted, he said Mexico needs more workers. Many of those migrants have been integrated into the Mexican workforce, and never arrive at the US border. He noted that his home town, Monterrey, has a large Hatian community, that has been integrated into the local workforce.

He said that, if the US wanted to really help with the situation, it would help fund efforts in Mexico to settle the migrants, in Mexico. I suspect it would be cheaper for the US to settle people in Mexico, than to pay for their resettlement in the US.

As I offered a while back, maybe the US should just declare Mexico “safe enough” for refugees, as the country is clearly considered “safe enough” for corporations to invest many Billions of dollars in.



But the United States was giving supplies and assistance to the allies in 1940. So, think about that, if the United States would have kept out of it, like you are proposing with Ukraine, where would England be now?


Unfortunately you say you have understanding but haven’t really said on what side you are on. You can bring up what the United States has done, what England has done. But you haven’t said if you think what Russia is doing is right or wrong. Having an argument of “whataboutism” is a logical fallacy. Each event should be admired or condemned on it’s own merits.



Everything is questionable and why I said here we go. :joy:


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A very close friend of mine age 82 was on a destroyer in the Gulf of Tonkin. When he got state’s side 6 months later he was informed of the event. No one in our navy in the Gulf of Tonkin during the event knew anything had happened.

I am totally serious.


Nothing wrong with absurdly long posts. Everything wrong with long posts that are absurd, which this was not. :wink: