China Evergrande Lauches EV-Challenges Tesla?

Investment Analysis Clubs Macro Economic Trends and Risks
#1

https://www.scmp.com/business/china-business/article/3184372…
China Evergrande launches first EV, the Hengchi 5, at just over half the price of Tesla’s Model Y as embattled developer aims to revive fortunes
The world’s most heavily indebted developer hopes its cut-price smart SUV, at 179,000 yuan (US$26,693), will help revive its fortunes and generate much-needed cash
The company will start delivering units in October, said Liu Yongzhuo, president of Evergrande Auto, during an online presentation watched by 825,000 people.

Another cheap China SUV offering:https://cleantechnica.com/2020/08/29/xpeng-g3-21383-to-29102…
Xpeng G3 — $21,383 To $29,102 Hot Electric Crossover (In China)

I don’t know their availability in the US. But the pricing is certainly attractive.

A review of the Xpeng G3:https://insideevs.com/reviews/422793/xpeng-g3-bjorn-review-f…

#2

Since most anti-EVers or EV fence sitters seem to be (IMO) overly concerned about long distance driving and how fast you can charge…wouldn’t any Tesla challenger (especially in the US) need to address the fact that Tesla has over 1400 Supercharger locations with an average of 10 chargers per location. Plus they have another 30,000 destination chargers (world-wide, about half in US).

Conclusion. They are not a Tesla challenger.

Mike

#3

Conclusion. They are not a Tesla challenger.

It used to be “Tesla Killer.” Since none has appeared they toned it down to “Tesla Challenger.” Everything can be a challenger but will it win or get KeyOd?

Designing a fantastic car is not enough. Musk has told the world what is needed, “The Machine that Builds the Machines,” the Agile giga factories that can spit out millions of cars. That costs money, lots of money. How much spare cash does Evergrande have? I though they were on the brink of bankruptcy. Dedicated automakers have a hard time challenging Tesla. Worry about Evergrande Car? About Apple Car? A waste of time.

Worry about real contenders like the Ford F-150 Lightning, like VW if Herbert Diess can will his battle vs. the VW flat-earthers, worry about Chinese car and battery maker BYD if you really need to worry to be happy. :wink:

“It’s the Cash Flow, stupid!” Tesla has a big pile of cash, 30% gross margins, and the ability to raise prices. A powerful one-two-three.

The Captain

#4

if Herbert Diess can will his battle vs. the VW flat-earthers,

WIN! - Sorry about that.

The Captain
has dyslexic fingers

#5

Since most anti-EVers or EV fence sitters seem to be (IMO) overly concerned about long distance driving and how fast you can charge…wouldn’t any Tesla challenger (especially in the US) need to address the fact that Tesla has over 1400 Supercharger locations with an average of 10 chargers per location. Plus they have another 30,000 destination chargers (world-wide, about half in US).

The Xpeng G3 has a range of approx 250 miles similar to the standard Tesla 3 & in a SUV configuration that seems to be more popular than the sedan in the US at a cost savings of $15k over the model 3.
Are there not adapters available for nonTesla EVs so that they can charge at Tesla charging stations?

#6

China Evergrande…The world’s most heavily indebted developer hopes its cut-price smart SUV, at 179,000 yuan (US$26,693), will help revive its fortunes and generate much-needed cash

This right here tells me all I need to know. Massive piles of debt, cut-price vehicle, hopes and dreams of reviving its fortunes. Where have we heard this swan song combination before?

#7

Xpeng
https://insideevs.com/news/595853/xpeng-ev-sales-june-2022/
XPeng More Than Doubled EV Sales In June 2022
The brand remains #1 among emerging automakers in China by volume.
Still low numbers but expanding.

1 Like
#8

XPEV:https://www.morningstar.com/stocks/xnys/xpev/quote
Likely first of many China EV makers sending their product to US shores.
Another EV ground floor investment opportunity?

#9

Are there not adapters available for nonTesla EVs so that they can charge at Tesla charging stations?

Doesn’t matter. Even if there were an adapter it wouldn’t work.
The Tesla Supercharger interface gets the VIN or other ID from the car so it can connect it to your Tesla account and credit card on file. Tesla can change this, as they are testing in Europe.

Mike

#10

The Xpeng G3 has a range of approx 250 miles similar to the standard Tesla 3 & in a SUV configuration that seems to be more popular than the sedan in the US at a cost savings of $15k over the model 3.

If they had to raise their prices to build out service centers and chargers in the US that cost savings would shrink.

Mike

#11

Doesn’t matter. Even if there were an adapter it wouldn’t work.
The Tesla Supercharger interface gets the VIN or other ID from the car so it can connect it to your Tesla account and credit card on file. Tesla can change this, as they are testing in Europe.

Mike

That may be changing. Tesla is apparently opening up access of supercharger network.
https://www.theverge.com/2022/7/7/23198696/tesla-supercharge…
Tesla plans to open up its Supercharger network to non-Tesla electric vehicles in the US in late 2022, according to a White House memo.

The company has been allowing non-Tesla EVs to use its Supercharger plugs in several cities in Europe as part of a limited pilot program but has been quiet about when US charging stations would be available to non-Tesla EV owners. A “fact sheet” published by the White House on June 28th and noticed by InsideEVs indicates that those EV owners may be able to use Superchargers as soon as the end of this year.

“Later this year, Tesla will begin production of new Supercharger equipment that will enable non-Tesla EV drivers in North America to use Tesla Superchargers,” the White House states.

Tesla did not respond to an email seeking confirmation of these plans (Elon Musk disbanded the company’s PR office in 2019). It’s not clear whether the White House purposefully scooped Tesla’s own announcement on this project.

#12

If they had to raise their prices to build out service centers and chargers in the US that cost savings would shrink.

Mike

If Tesla does allow charger access, that is a big problem solved.
Tesla has 120 service centers. But they are clustered in the San Francisco to LA & Boston to NYC/Philly corridors*.
Perhaps a better approach for an upstart is to look at the number of EV registrations by state:
https://afdc.energy.gov/data/mobile/10962
According to the above link California, Florida, Texas, & Washington have 75-80% of registered EVs. So San Francisco, LA, Dallas, Austin, Miami, & Seattle service centers would be a good start.

I believe Musk would be willing to cede low cost EVs market while maintaining dominance in the high margin more costly EV market. That strategy has worked well for Mercedes Benz in the IC car market. Musk just has to bring his truck product to the US markets. Americans are quite willing to spend $50K-$75K on a pick up.

*https://www.carsdirect.com/automotive-news/tesla-reportedly-…
https://www.tesla.com/findus?v=2&bounds=58.7442456234325…

#13

Oops! My reply to Mike regarding nonTesla access to Tesla supercharger network was made before to my reading of prior posts that were made while I was out shopping. I see that story now has its own thread.

#14

Tesla has 120 service centers. But they are clustered in the San Francisco to LA & Boston to NYC/Philly corridors*.

But a “challenger” can probably get by with just one or two service centers in a major city, to start with. Where they will be lacking is the one or two in each of the least populous ~40 states.
Where the lower cost buyers are not yet buying as many EVs.

Mike

#15

The Xpeng G3 has a range of approx 250 miles similar to the standard Tesla 3 & in a SUV configuration that seems to be more popular than the sedan in the US at a cost savings of $15k over the model 3.

Wow, that’s pretty good. How much does the US Spec Xpeng G3 cost? And where can I order one? Does it come in a long-range version for a slight premium?

Are there not adapters available for nonTesla EVs so that they can charge at Tesla charging stations?

No, the adapter isn’t the problem, the paying is the problem. Tesla superchargers are plug and play, you simply plug it in and the car/backend system arranges payment. It’s incredible, you plug in, and seconds later it begins to charge. Then when done charging, it will link to the invoice in your Tesla app on your phone.

I once tried to use a chargepoint charger, I already had the chargepoint app installed and configured, and I simply couldn’t get the damn thing to start charging. The UI is a mess, and everything takes SO LONG to do. In the end, after 25 minutes I gave up, and drove somewhere else to charge the car.

Tesla will be installing additional new superchargers, that will support both Tesla plugs and CCS plugs, and will support a way for non-Teslas to pay for their charging.

#16

Wow, that’s pretty good. How much does the US Spec Xpeng G3 cost? And where can I order one? Does it come in a long-range version for a slight premium?

No extended range option.
Well I had thought they would have dealers in California as they have been testing their autonomous driving in California since 2020.
https://www.chinapev.com/ev-2/xpeng-motors/selling-to-the-un…
But alas no. They are in the EU first. Likely because of the high EV sales there.
https://www.cnbc.com/2022/02/10/chinese-ev-maker-xpeng-to-op…

18 months ago a Xpeng G3 was:”The list price for the G3 in Norway starts at 358,000 NKr (EUR 33,700 - $41,000 US ) and has a WLTP range rating of 451 km (280 miles).”
The comparable Tesla SUV model Y (range 314 miles) arrived in the EU just last year.
https://insideevs.com/news/519160/tesla-model-y-coming-europ…
As we can see, in Germany, the price of the Model Y LR AWD is €56,990 ($67,583), while the Performance version starts at €63,990 ($75,884).

That’s a 14% premium over the Tesla Model 3 LR AWD at €49,990 ($59,290) and 16% premium over the Performance version at €54,990 ($65,220).

We guess that the Tesla Model Y from Berlin might be more affordable, but at this point it’s only speculation.

Meanwhile Tesla is jacking up the price of the model 3 in the EU.
https://www.autoevolution.com/news/tesla-model-3-gets-insane…
Tesla customers in Europe are in shock after the EV maker decided to significantly hike the price of the base version of the Model 3. In most European countries, the Model 3 RWD has now a starting price of €49,990 ($55,100) but can get as high as €54,990 ($60,400) in Italy and Portugal. The recent price hike also means that Tesla Model 3 customers will lose some of the subsidies in certain countries, including Germany.

Tesla is targeting the luxury market. And I am sure the Tesla is a better EV. But tens of thousands of dollars better than an Xpeng G3?
Well we will what Mr Market says as we view sales down the road. Xpeng will be selling to those that won’t/can’t pay the premium price of a Tesla.

#17

2-16-2022
https://topelectricsuv.com/news/xpeng/xpeng-sweden-netherlan…
Xpeng Motors currently builds EVs in Zhaoqing, China, but it is setting up two new domestic factories in Guangzhou and Wuhan. The annual production capacity will be more than 400,000 units when the new factories are up and running.

Total vehicle deliveries for 2021 hit 98,155 units, representing a 263 percent year-over-year improvement. The Chinese automaker is still far from achieving the high production levels its three factories will allow it, and scaling up exports to Europe could improve plant capacity utilization.

#18

18 months ago a Xpeng G3 was:”The list price for the G3 in Norway starts at 358,000 NKr (EUR 33,700 - $41,000 US ) and has a WLTP range rating of 451 km (280 miles).”

280 miles is good. I own 2 EVs, one with 150 mile range and another with 350 mile range, and 150 is not quite enough for trips outside of commuting and errands. 280 would be fine though.

Tesla is targeting the luxury market. And I am sure the Tesla is a better EV. But tens of thousands of dollars better than an Xpeng G3?
Well we will what Mr Market says as we view sales down the road. Xpeng will be selling to those that won’t/can’t pay the premium price of a Tesla.

I think Tesla is doing two things:

  1. They are segmenting their market. Right now, there is far more demand than they can supply. So they stopped producing all the lower tier models (no lower tier S, no lower tier X, and almost no lower tier 3, and I think they never had a lower tier Y). As soon as the demand picture requires lower tier models, they can bring them back.
  2. They are taking good advantage of the excess demand by increasing prices. Since they control the pricing directly, and since they know exactly how many orders are coming in at any time, they can adjust the prices accordingly. As demand has grown, they have increased prices. But, as soon as they see demand dropping for a particular model, they can easily and almost instantly adjust the price in the other direction.

Most other automakers allow their dealers to capture the excess profit to be had when demand exceeds supply. Or when demand of particular tiers within a model have excess demand.

Finally, if there’s little profit in the lowest end EV models, perhaps Tesla doesn’t even want to be part of that segment.

2 Likes
#19

Finally, if there’s little profit in the lowest end EV models

Also true with IC vehicles. That’s why Ford & GM crank out oodles of $70+K pick ups.
https://carsalesbase.com/china-xpeng/

Xpeng sales are building.
https://carsalesbase.com/china-xpeng/

It appears Xpeng strategy is to the lower cost spread selling worldwide*. The China domestic model selling in China is quite low. But the models selling in the EU are priced quite a bit higher (I assume export models require more safety equipment but also padded for more profit from the “wealthy” EU buyers) but 10% lower than Tesla in the EU.
https://carnewschina.com/2022/04/22/xpeng-p5-electric-sedan-…
XPeng has announced starting prices for the P5 electric sedan for Europe. It will be launched in four countries: Norway, the Netherlands, Denmark, and Sweden. Its lowest price tag lies between 42,660-57,920 USD. The cheapest XPeng P5 will be available on the Norwegian market.

The XPeng P5 is a compact all-electric sedan with dimensions of 4808/1840/1530 mm with a wheelbase of 2768 mm. It is 114 mm longer, 9 mm narrower, and 87 mm higher than the Tesla Model 3.

The XPeng P5 is available in China with LFP battery packs of 55.9 kWh and 57.4 kWh. It also has versions with ternary (NMC) batteries for 61.3 kWh, 66.2 kWh, and 71.4 kWh. The P5’s range is around 450-600 km (NEDC). Another benefit of the P5 is the twin LIDAR system. As for the price, they are pretty affordable in China for 177,900-242,900 RMB (27,360-37,360 USD).

The XPeng P5 will be available in four European countries. In Denmark, where the first XPeng store opened on April 9, the XPeng P5 is expected to start from 390,000 DKK (56,690 USD). It is a high figure, but its primary competitor, the Tesla Model 3, costs 409,990 DKK (62,560 USD). So it seems like the XPeng P5 is out of competition in terms of pricing in Denmark.

*https://www.cnbc.com/2021/11/24/chinese-tesla-rival-xpeng-wa…
Chinese electric car start-up Xpeng plans to become a global automaker, with half of vehicle deliveries going to countries outside China, vice president and chairman Brian Gu said Wednesday.

#20

The XPeng P5 will be available in four European countries. In Denmark, where the first XPeng store opened on April 9, the XPeng P5 is expected to start from 390,000 DKK (56,690 USD). It is a high figure, but its primary competitor, the Tesla Model 3, costs 409,990 DKK (62,560 USD). So it seems like the XPeng P5 is out of competition in terms of pricing in Denmark.

I wonder how Danish consumers will react to this pricing? Maybe they will spend the extra $5-6k for the “better” vehicle, or at least perceived better vehicle. Or maybe for better access to the supercharger network? Or maybe just because the “status” of the Tesla is higher than the XPeng?