Control Panel: Rent & buy stocks

I have wondered for a long time where the money that is inflating the stock market is coming from.

One possible source: young people who are renting instead of buying a home.

https://www.wsj.com/personal-finance/where-have-all-the-young-home-buyers-gone-check-the-stock-market-e79f89ad?mod=wknd_pos1

Where Have All the Young Home Buyers Gone? Check the Stock Market The rent vs. buy debate has taken on new meaning for Gen Z thanks to soaring share prices and more investment options

By Carol Ryan, The Wall Street Journal, Oct. 12, 2025

A record stock market might have a link to the unaffordable housing market, based on how younger Americans are thinking about their finances.

Owning a home has traditionally been the way for U.S. households to build wealth. But today’s high property prices mean younger people either can’t afford to get on the property ladder or think they can earn a better return elsewhere.

Influencers on social media are weighing in. Their message: Don’t stretch to buy a house at today’s prices. Rent and invest your cash instead…

A JPMorgan Chase report found that 37% of 25-year-olds used investment accounts in 2024, up from 6% of the age group in 2015. A sixfold increase in the number of young people investing in the stock market over the past decade suggests a shift in the way they think about building wealth. …

[Snip good financial analysis comparing aspects of renting vs. buying showing why renting might be the better choice for many]

…
There are reasons to buy a home that have nothing to do with financial returns, including the predictability of mortgage costs into the future, the freedom to do what you want with the property, and having it paid off by retirement so you don’t have to worry about making the rent in old age… [end quote]

These were my reasons for buying a home many years ago. The other input came from my grandmother, who began investing in the 1920s. When I told her how much money I was making in the stock market she said, “Ah. But is it all on paper?” Having lived through the Roaring 20s bubble and bust, Grandma was aware that paper profits could vanish overnight, leaving the investor with nothing. My grandparents were on a cruise to Europe in October 1929 (with my infant father). After the crash, they met American expatriates in Paris who had been living on their stock market profits who literally could not raise enough cash to buy a ticket back home. (Cue @intercst to laugh at me for listening to my Grandmother.)

As a result, I bought my home and car. Whatever happened I was not going to lose the roof over my head or my transportation. The assets were fixed in place. Plus my home appreciated in value…although I never included this in my net worth. I counted it as “One House Unit” since I would always need a home and the prices all moved together.

But others could argue for renting. My older brother, Jeff , and intercst both rented for many decades while successfully investing in the stock market. Both increased their paper net worth quickly.

I believe that the stock market is in a classic bubble. By the way, Nobel Prize winner Paul Krugman just published a Substack article that says the same thing. Since so much of the economy and the stock market are driven by the gigantic capital investments in building AI capacity anything that burst the bubble would cause a recession (at best) and also a stock market crash rivaling the other mania-driven crashes.

@Kingran informed me confidently that the Cyclically Adjusted P/E Ratio (CAPE Ratio) is no longer an appropriate way to value the S&P500 since our economy no longer has regular business cycles. Because of that, the appropriate metric for valuation should be Price to Forward Earnings.

I had to smile at that because I disagree on so many levels. Kingram was saying, “This time is different,” which is what everyone said during every historic bubble.

As the wise Yogi Berra said, “It’s hard to make predictions, especially about the future.”

The business cycle has been mitigated by an active Federal Reserve but it’s hard to run a capitalist economy without business cycles.

Technology is constantly changing and is especially vulnerable to competitive advances. The Chinese are actively working on ways to do AI with cheaper chips. They are already succeeding and their efforts are just beginning. It may not be long before Nvidia is in the history books like Wang Computers. And the billions invested in AI may never generate even a fraction of the end-user spending compared with the investment.

The current AI bubble is similar to the technology-driven bubbles of the past, including railroads in the UK in the 1840s, the 1920s and the 2000s.

The Macroeconomic trend of today’s youth is to delay (sometimes indefinitely) the “milestones of adulthood” that characterized the maturation of earlier generations. According to the Census Bureau, the share of young adults (ages 25-34) who have achieved all five of these milestones fell from approximately 26% in 2005 to about 17% in 2023.

The Macroeconomic trend of today’s youth is to delay (sometimes indefinitely) the “milestones of adulthood” that characterized the maturation of earlier generations. According to the Census Bureau, the share of young adults (ages 25-34) who have achieved all five of these milestones fell from approximately 26% in 2005 to about 17% in 2023.

It would certainly be tragic if these young people had invested their savings into the stock market (instead of a home) only to see the bubble deflate.

On the other hand, if this is truly a generational Macroeconomic trend the bubble may continue to inflate.

Meanwhile, billions of private equity dollars are evaporating as zombie companies go bankrupt.

Billions of Dollars ‘Vanished’: Low-Profile Bankruptcy Rings Alarms on Wall Street

The unraveling of First Brands, a midsize auto-parts maker, is exposing hidden losses at international banks and “private credit” lenders.

By Rob Copeland, The New York Times, Oct. 10, 2025

First Brands, an auto-parts maker, filed for bankruptcy late last month…But now, the company is at the center of swirling milieu on Wall Street and beyond over the private equity loans that fueled its rise and the questionable accounting, some of its creditors say, that preceded the fall…

Unlike traditional banks, private credit lenders say, they have the ability to lend quickly because they understand complicated, risky businesses and do not need to worry about repaying ordinary depositors or reporting public earnings.

Trillions of dollars have been plowed into private credit over the past decade, principally from pension funds, endowments and other groups that rely on such investments to fulfill obligations to retirees and the like.

The Trump administration made moves this summer to allow 401(k) plans to invest savings into the private equity funds that extend private credit to companies, raising the stakes even further… [end quote]

Private equity loans are often illiquid and often not marked to market. These dangers have been explained in detail by Jason Zweig in articles in the Wall Street Journal.

The loans are inappropriate for small investors. But even for the big boys, private equity is opaque and illiquid. Given the huge stakes, lack of regulation and unpublished interconnections of loans a key bankruptcy could be a “Black Swan” trigger for a financial crisis.

Meanwhile, China has played a strong card by cutting off exports of critical rare earth elements. President Trump countered with another tariff imposition and possible canceling of his scheduled meeting with President Xi.

https://www.wsj.com/finance/stocks/rekindling-of-tariff-fight-pressures-wall-streets-hottest-trades-4b9e6b3d?mod=finance_lead_pos3

Wall Street Has ‘White Knuckle Moment’ After Tariff Threat Sends Markets Reeling Friday’s market slide rattled some investors who thought the 2025 market advance was immune to trade-war tensions

By Jack Pitcher, The Wall Street Journal, Oct. 11, 2025

…

Friday’s market slide — fueled by President Trump’s new threat of “massive” tariffs on goods from China — wasn’t huge by historical standards. But its breadth and its focus on red-hot tech shares and smaller banks rattled some analysts and portfolio managers, who had come to believe that the 2025 market advance had grown immune to trade-war tensions…

Chips are on the front line of the trade war, but hardly the only vulnerable sector. Regional banks also slumped…Trump’s threat also hit shares of all kinds of trade-sensitive companies, such as automakers, clothing manufacturers and even health and beauty firms…Investors now are paying more than ever for each dollar of revenue the S&P 500’s members produce. … [end quote]

Investors responded with a classic fear response. Stocks dropped and VIX spiked (though not to a crisis level).

The entire Treasury yield curve dropped as investors moved into safe Treasuries. Junk bond prices dropped along with stocks since a recession would drive many zombies into bankruptcy. Copper, oil, natgas and bitcoin plunged.

The Fear & Greed Index was in Fear. The trade was strongly risk-off. But USD and gold held steady – the money was moved into safe, interest-yielding Treasuries.

The Chicago Fed’s National Financial Conditions Index (NFCI), which provides a comprehensive weekly update on U.S. financial conditions in money markets, debt and equity markets, and the traditional and “shadow” banking systems, was very loose and became even looser.

The chart makes it clear how margin is driving the stock market bubble as it has in the past. The S&P500 divided by money in circulation, which closely correlates with SPX, is the highest since the 2000 dot-com bubble burst. Anyone who can read a chart will be concerned about the chart below.

https://en.macromicro.me/charts/89294/sp500-finra

It’s impossible to say what will happen next week since the situation is morphing rapidly and Trump is unpredictable.

The METAR for next week is stormy. Like the nor’easter heading for the mid-Atlantic it will be rough but probably not hurricane force.

Wendy

https://www.cnn.com/markets/fear-and-greed

https://en.macromicro.me/charts/89294/sp500-finra

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First of all, my position was much more nuanced than you give me credit for. :slight_smile:

Here are some simple facts:

  • I have been talking about AI bubble, much longer than you are talking about it
  • I never said bubble won’t burst
  • Saying everyone who is born will die, while true, is of 0 use. You need metrics which are actionable. CAPE is not actionable is my point. I suggested using additional measure and not throw away CAPE totally. What I said was “CAPE is useful only in extreme cases”

Let me actually throw a challenge, go back all the way to 2010, and see when exactly CAPE is telling you “coast is clear”??

On business cycle, I posted data to highlight the point I am making. Do you have anything besides your hunch???

Again, anyone can say “future is difficult to predict”, very true, absolutely useless. Let me flip Yogi on you… if future is unknown, how can you be so sure, the bubble is about to burst, and the rally will not continue for another 2 years, and the markets go up by another 100%?

I have provided data from 1982… Certainly you are not going to say Fed was intervening then… Also, I didn’t say there won’t be business cycles, all I said is business cycles are longer than the past… big difference.

Those who are so certain about bubble and project all this AI investment will not produce results… have no idea when it will burst, and refuse to look at history, that every major technology breakthrough, all the way from railroads, results in capacity over build, subsequent shakeout, consolidation and the winners thrive… and in the meantime society benefits immensely, and in many ways changed permanently.

Doom and Gloom is sexy, but very unprofitable, except for newsletter authors. I shared my views, but I am not interested in changing anyone’s views. As for me, I am “strong ideas loosely held”. Anyone who followed my posts in LL board, knows, while I am generally optimistic, I post about all things that could derail the theory.

Everyone has a different tolerance to risk, capital, different stages in their investing life. You invest according to it.

Just make money.

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That’s been the folklore promoted by the home building and real estate industry. But when you run the numbers, the stock market offers much higher investment returns.

Gen Z is the first generation to get the arithmetic right.

intercst

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To a certain degree it is true, but for many average individuals, paying mortgage is easy than systematically investing and not to be subject to emotional upheaval with market drawdowns.

I haven’t looked at the numbers… but keep in mind, most investors don’t take leverage in their brokerage account, but in housing they get 5x leverage… so, even if home prices goes up by 2~3%, it results in 10% ~ 15% return on the money they invested.

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But most people don’t really invest. They just blow the money. A house is a forced savings plan.

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That’s correct. But it’s a low return, forced savings plan.

Rent vs. Buy only makes sense if you’re actually investing the money in the stock market long-term. You never want any money you’re going to spend within the next 10 years in the stock market.

intercst

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And Real Estate makes a fantastic investment if you shop for a good investment instead of some insane notion of what “you like” or “suits you” or (the worst of all) your “dream home”.

Buying an abused or neglected fixer upper with “great bones” in a neighborhood that is going up and then fix it up with the same attention to returns as many on this board do with stock investing spreadsheets.

It helps if you find crawling in crawl spaces therapeutic, or even fun.

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Haha

The therapeutic and fun part is when I exit the crawl space. Same for attic.

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I have much more control over the investment in my house than I do with stock in companies.

I can decide if adding stairs will increase the value of my home, whether a remodeled kitchen will do likewise, and so on. I cannot control whether the CEO of my company will blow the profits (or go into debt) to acquire some small company I’ve never heard of.

(I understand that’s what you pay a CEO and the Board to do, just saying I have no control over that.)

On the other side, I have liabilities like a furnace blowing up or the roof leaking, but then any stock investment isn’t guaranteed to do well either.

My calculation on our current home (6 years) is that we’ve gotten about 10% a year since moving in. Yes, we made some renovations and stuff, but that’s included in the calculation. And, I have to say, the rent has not gone up - as it surely would have if we were renting the equivalent property.

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True…but the early financers who inflated the bubble got wiped out in many cases.

It’s a pattern. I’m not willing to play musical chairs to get out just in time to avoid the crash.

YMMV

Wendy

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Not really. The early financiers are the VC’s and they often take some cash out as the bubble build, also they have significant stake in surviving companies. The bubble is now moving towards credit phase, i.e., companies are taking debt to build the capacity. For now, FED is in cutting mode, so liquidity will be there… but at some point it will pop.

That doesn’t matter. If you feel, you need to sit this one out, I can understand that. There is no need to get rich twice :slight_smile:

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Dude. That’s called a bubble bursting. It’s exactly what we are saying will happen here. Over-built capacity, shakeout, losses, and Including those last two words.

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When? immediately, in next 2, 3 years?

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We don’t know. And we admit that. However, you refuse to admit this is a bubble that will pop.

Go back and re-read. I didn’t say it will not pop, but we don’t know, how long the rally will continue. One needs to be flexible. This is not same as bubble will not pop.

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Meh.

I’d want to know the average balances of those accounts. Back in 2015, there was basically one [major] free online broker - Robinhood. Now, there are dozens. Having $200 in an online brokerage isn’t likely doing much to move stock prices.

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As long as money pours into the market, it will continue to rise.Stocks don’t start cracking because of selling, but rather when the music (and the buying) stops. Then the selling starts and the fall begins.

Jeff

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This shows the delta between Shiller CAPE EPS vs recent 5 year average vs current year… $167 vs 232 vs 268.

The current, you know, 39 multiple on the Schiller PE is $167 a share. And now if you look at the last 5 years, 21 to 25, the average S&P EPS is 232 a share. So it’s 40% better. So I think a problem with the Schiller PE is that we’re still using earnings numbers from a long time ago, literally from the mid 2010s, where earnings power for the S&P has improved materially since then. Margins are better. revenue growth has been good. And so if you’re looking at just the last five years of of of earnings, the Schiller P is more like 28 29, a much more reasonable number.

you can find the discussion starting at 11:45

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Hey! It’s Jeff (in a rented boat somewhere??) Howdy Jeff!

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