Economics of adding 87K IRS agents

Many on this board may know that I volunteer with SCORE.org which is a national organization that is a resource partner of the SBA. We help small businesses with business plans, getting financing from the SBA, and provide other small business assistance - all for free.

During the pandemic, the SBA administered the Paycheck Protection Program (PPP) in addition to their Economic Injury Disaster Loan (EIDL) program. The PPP was essentially a grant program and the EIDL is a fixed, low rate, long term loan guaranteed by the SBA.

I was asked to work with many, many small business owners to help them qualify for the PPP program. You would not believe the number of small businesses that did not have sufficient documentation to prove their payroll expenses so were unable to qualify for the grant program.

Some folks that own small businesses think by “skirting” the tax laws they will be better off, but in the long run, it really is better to pay your taxes and keep your books in good order so that when you need government assistance, you can qualify. A number of these small businesses did not make it through the pandemic - and the only reason they could not stay in business was because they could not qualify for the PPP “free money” grants.

https://www.sba.gov/funding-programs/loans/covid-19-relief-o…

https://www.sba.gov/funding-programs/disaster-assistance/eco…

'38Packard

  • who ran his own small business for many years and was quite OCD about “balancing the books”
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Even if their net income is well below 400K? Seems contrary to certain claims, eh?

YR,

No it is not contrary. Rettig who was appointed IRS commissioner in 2018 is going after people making less than $20k. Possibly the next commissioner depending on the appointment date will go after small cash businesses with a greater focus. The same resources would be used. Or shifted.

Some folks that own small businesses think by “skirting” the tax laws they will be better off, but in the long run, it really is better to pay your taxes and keep your books in good order so that when you need government assistance, you can qualify. A number of these small businesses did not make it through the pandemic - and the only reason they could not stay in business was because they could not qualify for the PPP “free money” grants.

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As a small business owner I can vouch for the above in aces. I tell my bookkeeper and CPA firm to just keep me out of trouble. But this also means I have no-little idea why they do what they do. That makes me,as the location where the buck stops, feel quite vulnerable. I cannot be everywhere and know everything the others do. When PPP time came I received far more than I could have imagined, all totally forgiven to date. The guy next door could not even file for any relief, for reasons I do not know directly, but I have my thoughts.

Side note- Back in the 1990’s I had a recommended guy come in to update us on the computer generated AR and such. We used his proprietary software. We began to have problems with cash deposits that could not be itemized as cash payments into our account. His reply was, I was the only customer to have this issue and why do you want to be difficult? The rest were not declaring cash payments? I was odd man out. I made him change our program to accept cash payments.

YR

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Perhaps you have not run a business, with employees and had an full scale audit. The real fear is did all the hired bean counters do it all correctly? Do you have every receipt and can you explain each transaction? When you run a business you hire folks to do that for you, so having to jump in and “know” what everyone was thinking and why they did what they did is the real fear. You know where the buck stops unlike other folks.

I have run small businesses and I know that feeling in the pit of your stomach when you open the letter from the IRS. However, you can still make them attack a wolf (ya, I know) instead of a sheep with a little preparation. In that regard, I have two things to mention; internal controls and documentation.

Even small businesses should have internal controls in place (and yes, they should be documented). Internal controls protect both the business and its employees. They also ensure that things are done correctly and consistently. Ask your accountant to help you prepare them. If they balk or have a puzzled look on their face, get new ones.

Documentation, including internal memos, is critical and should be filed in a manner that is easy to retrieve. Having documentation scanned is MUCH easier to store and locate than paper. Documentation is not just invoices, it includes the logic used to make major decisions (via internal memo). I can remember what I had for breakfast today, but three years ago? Not so much.

Auditors are much less likely to keep digging when their questions are answered quickly, rather then “I’ll get back to you next week.” Human nature.

By the way, if you think an IRS audit is gut wrenching, try an OMIG (Office of the Medicaid Inspector General) audit! There are no mistakes. Any error they find is considered fraud (unless you self-disclose it first). They look at a sample of 100 and extrapolate it over 5 or 6 years. In one audit, they found 20 errors, 18 having to do with Issue X (that’s a fictional name) and 2 were employee errors. Extrapolate those 20 over 6 years and you owe us $750k (that’s NOT fictional). But, if you pay us today, we’ll clear the account for $500k. I kid you not.

Well, we had proof that our internal controls were followed and we had documentation for Issue X that included internal memos that reflected OMIG opinion letters. Whew! The conversation went something like this:

AW - here is documentation including an OMIG opinion letter
OMIG - it’s just an opinion, you still owe us the money
AW - you’re kidding, right?
OMIG - do we look like we’re kidding (they didn’t)
AW - see you in court

This dragged on for months while they started withholding part of our Medicaid reimbursements. Then, few weeks before the court date, they settled for $35k (those 2 damn mistakes).

Real sweethearts.

Be the wolf.

AW

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This dragged on for months while they started withholding part of our Medicaid reimbursements. Then, few weeks before the court date, they settled for $35k (those 2 damn mistakes).

Real sweethearts.

Be the wolf.

AW

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In the end many would rally to the IRS side stating at least they caught one tax crook. Still others trying to navigate the same battlefield would suggest the overly complicated tax laws and reporting requirements are so burdensome no one can safely navigate those waters, even with professional help. IMO it is as though, the government puts up hurdles to get you to trip on for a gotcha experience.

Where is reality one this one?

YR

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Perhaps you have not run a business, with employees and had an full scale audit.

Actually, I have. And had an auditor who didn’t understand depreciation. Very frustrating.

As for the rest, seems to me that you are just shouting, not adding any insight.

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As for the rest, seems to me that you are just shouting

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You have to understand the difference between honest skepticism based on experience and those voices in your head turning up the volume on you for some reason.

YR

You have to understand the difference between honest skepticism based on experience and those voices in your head turning up the volume on you for some reason.

And you should try to understand that not everyone’s experience is the same as yours, and also that it takes money to run a government.

I have had two experiences with the IRS, and while it’s not something I recommend as a leisure pursuit, it also wasn’t such a big deal.

The IRS has been deliberately and maliciously underfunded for the past two decades, and it’s not surprising they have ended up where they are. It’s vastly harder to audit large firms which have complications and returns that run to hundreds, even thousands of pages, so agents have been consciously or unconsciously funneled into going after lower and middle class taxpayers. That should end. The agency is also working with technology from the last century thanks to underfunding, and with increasingly complicated tax laws, aided and abetted by politicians using it as a cudgel to win votes.
That also should end.

How the IRS was Gutted

An eight-year campaign to slash the agency’s budget has left it understaffed, hamstrung and operating with archaic equipment. The result: billions less to fund the government. That’s good news for corporations and the wealthy.
https://www.propublica.org/article/how-the-irs-was-gutted

It’s one thing to cite statistics about taxpayers waiting months or years for their refunds because Sisyphean stacks of paper returns are presumably collecting dust at some IRS processing center. It’s another thing to see what the backlog actually looks like.

This week, we’re getting a real-life glimpse of the problem, courtesy of Natasha Sarin, a tax policy counselor for the U.S. Treasury. Sarin shared a photo on social media that she says shows an Austin-based IRS facility overflowing with crates of unprocessed paper returns. Even more astounding is that the photo was not taken in an IRS warehouse or storage room, but in a cafeteria.
https://www.fastcompany.com/90761498/the-irs-backlog-of-pape…

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And you should try to understand that not everyone’s experience is the same as yours, and also that it takes money to run a government.

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It cuts both ways. Government should be mindful on how they spend others money and stay within a budget. When they refuse to do that, they become a belligerent Robin Hood about collecting more from those that have.

The transition is now here and forced upon us by the “spending class” of elected officials. The story line now will be that the only reason they cannot give away more to certain others, is now because the evil others won’t give up their fair share!! and NOT because the government officals are spending recklessly.

Game on.

YR

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YR,

It is not reckless spending at all. Read the comments on what those spending bills accomplish.

The reason we have all the federal debt we have is saving a few pennies and killing several dollars. Penny wise pound foolish. The federal government gets things done.

Your mantra that the federal government fails to get things done is no longer believable to most people. Most people see the mantra as harmful to the nation’s interests.

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Sarin shared a photo on social media that she says shows an Austin-based IRS facility overflowing with crates of unprocessed paper returns.

Also from the same link…

At the IRS in Austin, cafeteria is overrun with paper returns awaiting processing by campus’s dedicated employees who will keystroke line items into the IRS’s database

Wait! This is crazy. I do not understand why the IRS cannot scan these returns using OCR technology (been around since the 80’s) to convert paper to digital format and get these returns processed into their system? Why would anyone be “keystroking” anything today?

(OK - I’d say if someone sent their return in on a Led Zeppelin T-shirt I get it - but all I saw in that photo was reams and reams of 8x10 paper).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optical_character_recognition

I’ve been an IT guy my entire career and also highly doubt that the IRS will EVER re-write their systems from legacy mainframe technology.

'38Packard

  • I hope they prove me wrong… but I doubt it.

Wait! This is crazy. I do not understand why the IRS cannot scan these returns using OCR technology (been around since the 80’s) to convert paper to digital format and get these returns processed into their system? Why would anyone be “keystroking” anything today?

It is not crazy, Rettig is in charge since 2018. Every dollar wasted is one more dollar not used to audit the wealthy. It is purposeful.

Lawyers have been put on phonebanks to answer questions from people who earn under $20k per year but have been audited. Of course the same point wasting resources to protect the wealthy.

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The federal government gets things done.

Your mantra that the federal government fails to get things done is no longer believable to most people. Most people see the mantra as harmful to the nation’s interests.

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LMAO.

My feelings are the government overspends, in your world that is not possible. I hope you have a spouse that thinks the same way with YOUR finances!

YR

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I hope you have a spouse that thinks the same way with YOUR finances!

YR,

Do you picture your finances as being proportional or rationalized if you could as the federal government’s?

That is totally illogical. You have not studied public finance. Your opinions are not informed.

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The IRS has been deliberately and maliciously underfunded for the past two decades, and it’s not surprising they have ended up where they are.

I’m a professional tax preparer and advisor. This is exactly correct.

Early in my career, I learned exactly how small (small in the bigger picture, which is still multi-millions in sales), closely held businesses cheat on their taxes.

As a college grad and a not-yet CPA working at a CPA firm to get the experience needed for that last bit of sheepskin on the wall, I dug into plenty of sets of books to prepare monthly financial statements. We had one particular client who had components of his product produced in Japan, then imported by the container load for final assembly. The company routinely sent wire transfers to pay for these containers. There were typically two or three of these payments each month. The amounts were pretty much in a range, depending on the exchange rate with the Yen and exactly which products were in the container. At any rate, this was a common transaction and I knew how to record it on the books.

So one month, I see a wire transfer that is a bit different. It’s to a different company, but the amount is in the typical range for a container. I dutifully bring it to my boss’s attention, asking if maybe they are working with a new supplier. He tells me that it is the car the owner just bought for himself, but book it like a container purchase anyway.

And thus the lesson was taught and learned. Business owners cheat on their taxes, and with private companies, the accountants for those businesses are expected to facilitate that cheating.

I saw similar things happen at different jobs and with multiple different clients. Writing off vacations as travel expenses. Writing off family dinners as a business meeting. Writing off a personal party as a charitable contribution (complete with charitable documentation from the religious organization where the party was held). Writing off home improvements as repairs for the business warehouse.

I can pretty much guarantee that the stuff I saw is penny ante stuff compared to the really big boys. And that is where the dearth of auditing over the last two decades has cost all of us.

Large, complex businesses are hard to audit. And with the poor funding for the IRS, those audits don’t happen. Money has to be re-directed to keeping antiquated computer systems running and the massive volume of individual returns processed. Toss in a pandemic which gives many people incentive to simply quit a job where they are routinely disrespected by their major constituency (the people of the country), and the general inability to work from home for security reasons (do you really want IRS employees taking your return home to process it remotely from there?) and you have a recipe for near-disaster levels of problems.

What are the economics of adding 87k IRS agents? The economics are that those agents more than pay for themselves in increased collections, a smaller tax gap, and having enough people to actually do the job the IRS needs to do. Frankly, they probably need that much money again to really get the agency working the way it should.

–Peter

PS - I should follow this up with a shout out to the vast majority of my clients over the years who DON’T cheat on their taxes. Of course, many have little to no opportunity to cheat because they don’t run a business. All of their income and some deductible items are reported to the IRS, which makes cheating nearly impossible.

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YR, You are trying to make heroes out of tax cheats. You should quit while you are behind. Stop digging. I am running out of metaphors.

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One has to temper your concern with the recognition that those who fear being audited are those who have cheated on their return.

“The process is the punishment.”

“Lawfare.”

Never been audited yet, but everything I’ve heard from those who have is that it’s a royal pain - ever if the auditors find nothing out of line.

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Never been audited yet, but everything I’ve heard from those who have is that it’s a royal pain - ever if the auditors find nothing out of line.

Yep! At least in my case (this post is from near the beginning of this thread:

https://discussion.fool.com/irs-enforcers-are-not-thugs-they-are…

Cheers!
Murph
BL Home Fool

And yet…

The official IRS watchdog has found the IRS is unable to fulfill President Biden’s pledge not to increase audits on households or small businesses making less than $400,000 per year.

There is no way to identify the complete population of taxpayers that meet the criterion of $400,000 or more specified by the current Treasury Secretary,” said the Treasury Inspector General for Tax Administration (TIGTA) in a new report.

TIGTA recommended the IRS update its definition of “high-income” households from its current definition of $200,000 per year. But the IRS refused, asserting that it needs “agility” to target whomever it wishes.

Despite President Biden and congressional Democrats’ $400,000 pledge, the IRS’s definition of high-income taxpayer has not changed since 1976, when it was set at $200,000.

DB2
Adjusted for inflation:
$200K ==> $1,075K

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I’m OK with that. Going where the evidence indicates is preferable to targeting one particular group. Wasn’t there a special effort to target low income people who claimed the earned income credit some years ago? Just as wrong as targeting only people who claimed an income above a certain level.

Steve

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