My wife inherited a modest amount from her mother, which we are steadily gifting to our adult children as a tax-free transaction (as it is less than $10K/person/year).
Some years ago, I also bought some (not a lot) physical gold when it was well under $1K/oz
Were I to sell the gold, the net would be taxed at a collectible rate.
It occurred to me today that if:
I gifted x oz of gold to our sons, which they would then sell, and
Move the equivalent $ of the inheritance which we had intended to ultimately gift to our personal brokerage account, then
each of these would be non-taxable events but net the same to both parties, and
is not by any stretch defrauding the IRS as long as we stay under the $10K/yr limit
In essence, we would be taking away the wasted tax deduction of gifting tax-free dollars which werenât going to be taxed anyway
But Iâm not an accountant
Thoughts?
âsutton
"Anyone may arrange his affairs so that his taxes shall be as low as possible; he is not bound to choose that pattern which best pays the treasury. There is not even a patriotic duty to increase oneâs taxes. Over and over again the Courts have said that there is nothing sinister in so arranging affairs as to keep taxes as low as possible. Everyone does it, rich and poor alike and all do right, for nobody owes any public duty to pay more than the law demands.â - Judge Learned Hand, 1947
3) each of these would be non-taxable events but net the same to both parties, and
Thatâs the fly in the ointment.
If you gift the gold to your children, your basis (that figure under $1K/oz) goes along with it. So they would pay the tax on the capital gain rather than you.
Only inherited items get a step up in basis. Gifted items retain the giverâs basis.
1) I gifted x oz of gold to our sons, which they would then sell
Keep in mind that the gift beneficiary keeps the gift giverâs basis. So your sons will also be taxed at the collectibles rate on the same gains that you would have. If they were to inherit the gold instead, they would get a step up to a new cost basis (if the gains still remain). If you are also giving inherited stocks, rather than money, to your sons, you need to let them know what the cost basis of the stocks is, so they can be correctly taxed when they sell.
3) each of these would be non-taxable events but net the same to both parties, and
Nope - the sale of the gold that you posited in your first statement would be taxable to your sons, so they would end up with less than you intended to give them.
Nope - the sale of the gold that you posited in your first statement would be taxable to your sons, so they would end up with less than you intended to give them.
AJ
Just curious. If the number of ounces given were worth less than the $16,000 gift tax exclusion, and the son sold immediately upon receipt, ie no post gift cap gain, then neither party would owe taxes? Or is the gift tax exclusion limited to cash only gifts?
If the number of ounces given were worth less than the $16,000 gift tax exclusion, and the son sold immediately upon receipt, ie no post gift cap gain, then neither party would owe taxes?
No, the son would owe collectibles tax on the gains, just like the father would if he had sold before giving the gift. The gift beneficiary has the same basis in the property that the gift giver had.
Or is the gift tax exclusion limited to cash only gifts?
The gift exclusion is not limited to cash only gifts, but itâs only looking at the act of giving, not whatâs done with the gifts after they are given. So if you give your kid a car, and the value of the car is over the gift tax exclusion limit, you should be filing a Form 709 documenting that gift.
Not the basis of your query but a quick FYI that the annual gift tax exclusion amount is $16,000 for '22, just in case you would like to increase/accelerate your gifting schedule.
bighairymike: âJust curious. If the number of ounces given were worth less than the $16,000 gift tax exclusion, and the son sold immediately upon receipt, i.e. no post gift cap gain, then neither party would owe taxes? Or is the gift tax exclusion limited to cash only gifts?â
aj has already responded, but part of your question arises out of confusing gift tax with income tax.
gift tax focus on the act of giving; you reference that annual exclusion amount, but one could gift more, file a return, and use part of oneâs lifetime exemption amount.
income tax lloks at what happens when the recipient(donee) sells the gift. Your assumption of quick sale and no capital gain is off; you are thinking of an inheritance. For gifts, the recipient receives that donorâs basis for purposes of calculating capital gains and income taxes due. For purposes of calculating capital losses, the donee receives that lesser of of the donorâs basis or FMV value of gift a time of acquisition. Congress does nto want people giving away capital losses (especially if the donee is in a higher tax bracket).
For gifts, the recipient receives that donorâs basis for purposes of calculating capital gains and income taxes due.
Assuming the OP physically holds the gold coins, what is to stop them from dropping a coin in everyoneâs stocking come Christmas time? The recipient could sell whenever at a local coin/pawn/collector show. The few times Iâve ever sold physical coins that way, no one has ever asked for any âtracking paperworkâ, and as far as I know nothing reported to the IRS.
Or is the gift tax exclusion limited to cash only gifts?
The gift exclusion is not limited to cash only gifts, but itâs only looking at the act of giving, not whatâs done with the gifts after they are given. So if you give your kid a car, and the value of the car is over the gift tax exclusion limit, you should be filing a Form 709 documenting that gift.
Expanding on ajâs answer - there are two separate types of tax at play: income and gift. Gift tax is a tax on the transfer of wealth in excess of an annual threshhold, currently $16000/year as of 2022. Gift tax is also subject to a lifetime exclusion amount which is currently $12.06M. If there is a gift tax liability, it is paid by the transferor not the recipient.
Income tax is paid on the difference in value of the sale price from the adjusted cost basis. As aj stated, the transferorâs cost basis goes with the gift, so the recipient will have the same taxable gain as the original owner. (Of course, the actual tax may vary due to differing tax brackets.) FMV only comes into play if the FMV on the date of the gift is less than the adjusted cost basis in the hands of the transferor. If so, any future taxable gain is determined relative to the adjusted cost basis and any future âtaxableâ loss is determined relative to the FMV on the date of the gift.
In the case of an asset transfered via inheritance, the cost basis is adjusted up or down to the FMV on the date of death or the alternate valuation date.
Assuming the OP physically holds the gold coins, what is to stop them from dropping a coin in everyoneâs stocking come Christmas time? The recipient could sell whenever at a local coin/pawn/collector show.
Nothing to stop that scenario from happening.
But the recipient would still owe taxes as they still get the OPâs basis.
And if the recipient didnât report the income that would be tax fraud.
Assuming the OP physically holds the gold coins, what is to stop them from dropping a coin in everyoneâs stocking come Christmas time? The recipient could sell whenever at a local coin/pawn/collector show. The few times Iâve ever sold physical coins that way, no one has ever asked for any âtracking paperworkâ, and as far as I know nothing reported to the IRS.
Just because something can be done, doesnât make it legal and doesnât mean the IRS canât find out about it. For example, the IRS requires Form 8300 to report transactions valued at $10K or more. This falls under the anti-money laundering laws. The laws kick in if the business does more than $50K in transactions during the year.
Penalties for failure to file can reach the millions and can include felony prosecution.
Assuming the OP physically holds the gold coins, what is to stop them from dropping a coin in everyoneâs stocking come Christmas time? The recipient could sell whenever at a local coin/pawn/collector show. The few times Iâve ever sold physical coins that way, no one has ever asked for any âtracking paperworkâ, and as far as I know nothing reported to the IRS.
The difficulty of discovering and prosecuting a crime doesnât mean itâs not a crime.
Letâs say you take a small item off the shelf in a store and deliberately and knowingly walk out without paying for it, but no one stops you. Does the fact that you werenât caught mean you didnât shoplift?
If you drive 40 over the speed limit, but donât get a ticket, does that mean you werenât speeding?
Same thing here. Not getting caught is not the same as being right or acceptable or OK.
>>bighairymike: âJust curious. If the number of ounces given were worth less than the $16,000 gift tax exclusion, and the son sold immediately upon receipt, i.e. no post gift cap gain, then neither party would owe taxes? Or is the gift tax exclusion limited to cash only gifts?â<<
aj has already responded, but part of your question arises out of confusing gift tax with income tax.
gift tax focus on the act of giving; you reference that annual exclusion amount, but one could gift more, file a return, and use part of oneâs lifetime exemption amount.
income tax lloks at what happens when the recipient(donee) sells the gift. Your assumption of quick sale and no capital gain is off; you are thinking of an inheritance. For gifts, the recipient receives that donorâs basis for purposes of calculating capital gains and income taxes due. For purposes of calculating capital losses, the donee receives that lesser of of the donorâs basis or FMV value of gift a time of acquisition. Congress does nto want people giving away capital losses (especially if the donee is in a higher tax bracket).
Regards, JAFO
Thanks, I had lost sight of gifting the asset also includes gifting the basis. I have been gifting cash to my daughter and her husband to fund their Roths each year and knew neither of us incurred a tax. What I lost sight of with cash gifting is the basis of the gift is exactly the same as the value of gift.
Another point related to this is that gold coins are subject to a higher long term capital gains tax rate than stocks and bonds. I think the rate is 28%, but perhaps itâs even more.
Wow! I asked a question, got a precise, concise answer (which I think may be paraphrased by mangling Robert Heinlein: âThere is no step-up in basis this side of the graveâ).
Anyhow, I then went about my lifeâŚonly to come back two days later and find a long thread. Iâm guessing it must have been the board equivalent of what used to be called a âslow news dayâ.
As thereâs apparently an interest in the underlying concepts, however, I have a followup question that is only a thought experiment i.e. nothing I have any plans to do but just want to expand my knowledge.
Here it is:
Suppose I determine to gift my son $10K, and do so by giving him six, one-ounce gold coins which he then retails for $1667 each.
However, suppose I had bought them x years ago for $2000 apiece.
With the $10K gift, would he also assume my basis of $12K â and thus upon selling the coins have the additional benefit of a $2K capital loss with which to offset any capital gains he might have realized elsewhere?
Or do I keep the $2K of the original $12K basis and thus the $2K loss?
Suppose I determine to gift my son $10K, and do so by giving him six, one-ounce gold coins which he then retails for $1667 each.
However, suppose I had bought them x years ago for $2000 apiece.
With the $10K gift, would he also assume my basis of $12K â and thus upon selling the coins have the additional benefit of a $2K capital loss with which to offset any capital gains he might have realized elsewhere?
Or do I keep the $2K of the original $12K basis and thus the $2K loss?
You canât gift a tax loss.
The basis for a gifted item is the lesser of the current value or the original cost.
Any tax loss evaporates. It canât be claimed by either the giver or receiver.
Or do I keep the $2K of the original $12K basis and thus the $2K loss?
You canât gift a tax loss.
The basis for a gifted item is the lesser of the current value or the original cost.
Any tax loss evaporates. It canât be claimed by either the giver or receiver.
Almost correct, except for your second sentence. When you gift something where the current value is less than the original (actually, the adjusted) cost basis, the recipient gets two cost bases: one for calculating a gain and one for calculating a loss.
Gains are calculated based on the original cost basis. Losses are calculated based on the FMV at the time of the gift. If the gifted item is sold at a price between the original cost basis and the FMV at the time of the gift, there is neither a gain nor loss to report.