Is clean nuclear power possible?

Investment Analysis Clubs Macro Economic Trends and Risks
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BERLIN, Sept 16 (Reuters) - Germans angry at surging energy bills are taking to calling up their suppliers in droves to vent their frustrations…

“We increasingly have desperate clients in the customer service centres,” said Ingbert Liebing, the head of local utilities organisation VKU. “Some become aggressive out of frustration, others are in tears and need psychological support,” Liebing said.

https://www.reuters.com/markets/europe/energy-company-call-c…

60 years ago, German rocket scientist Wernher von Braun helped NASA’s research director, Abraham Silverstein, get America on track to reach the moon. Space flight history buffs will recall that Silverstein guided research in liquid hydrogen, a powerful fuel that had never been used in rockets before. This breakthrough in fuel energy production, combined with German expertise in rocket engineering, enabled the Apollo mission to reach its goal.

https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2020-03-01/who-got-…

Perhaps this winter some freezing cold German scientists and some hotshot US scientists can put their heads together and solve the remaining problems with clean nuclear fusion energy production.

https://www.energy.gov/science/fes/fusion-energy-sciences

I’m sure that frustrated German electricity consumers would be more than happy to welcome some form of clean nuclear energy if it would lower their utility bills.

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…solve the remaining problems with clean nuclear fusion energy production.

Nuclear fusion is a distant dream, and will not become a reality for many decades, IMO. As it was 40 years ago, the First Wall Problem remains a major engineering challenge. The first wall needs to withstand an intense neutron flux, and still function in a tokamak style reactor. The ITER being constructed in Europe might be able to answer some of the materials questions, but ITER will not be a working power plant.

We already have clean nuclear fission. Existing fission power plants are clean and safe compared to every other power generation technology, but there are designs being developed that will make fission even safer and cheaper.

  • Pete
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Existing fission power plants are clean and safe compared to every other power generation technology

A nuclear power plant will even release less radioactive material into the environment in a major disaster than a similar-size coal-fired plant will in a lifetime of normal operation.

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warrl: A nuclear power plant will even release less radioactive material into the environment in a major disaster than a similar-size coal-fired plant will in a lifetime of normal operation.

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You do not understand radioactive materials releases by coal fired power plants and nuclear disasters. Coal fired power plants are NOT releasing highly radioactive material that Chernobyl and Fukushima disasters released.

Jaak

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solve the remaining problems with clean nuclear fusion energy production.
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Probably won’t be online to help with this winter.

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Where does the energy come from to enrich uranium to fuel grade? TVA? Coal? Hydro?

And what about all the waste streams? How clean is nuclear? Is it sustainable?

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Where does the energy come from to enrich uranium to fuel grade? TVA? Coal? Hydro?

The US has one operating uranium enrichment plant in New Mexico. This is a rather new facility, and uses the much more efficient centrifuge technology, as opposed to the old gaseous diffusion process. However, this one plant is not big enough to supply all of the US reactors with enrichment services. Therefore, most of the enrichment is done overseas. There is talk of expanding US capacity, particularly for uranium enrichment to higher concentrations, to between 5% and 20% U-235.

https://www.world-nuclear.org/information-library/country-pr…

From the link above…
The USA currently has one operating enrichment plant owned by Urenco, with a capacity of 4.9 million SWU per year, compared with US requirements of about 15 million SWU/yr, and world total of 55.7 million SWU expected in 2020. Enrichment is typically up to 5% U-235.

(SWU stands for Separative Work Unit, basically, how much effort is required to enrich uranium to the desired percentage of U-235.)

Also, from the link above, regarding US uranium supply…
* The USA has nuclear fuel production capacity insufficient for domestic needs. A new enrichment plant is licensed to expand.
* Currently, almost all the uranium used in US commercial reactors is imported. After reaching a peak in 1980, domestic mining now accounts for about 5% of the fuel used in US reactors.

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And what about all the waste streams? How clean is nuclear? Is it sustainable?

Those questions can all be asked about lithium mining for all of the batteries the world is supposed to need in the near future. That also goes for the Rare Earths that go into the magnets for wind turbine generators, as well as other high tech uses. Some of those Rare Earth mines, particularly the ones in China, are famous for their toxic pollution of the surrounding countryside.

In-situ mining of uranium is supposed to be cleaner and a less toxic way to get the mineral. All of this mining in the US is highly regulated by the NRC, but the large majority of uranium is imported. Canada and Australia have uranium mining operations. Kazakhstan is also a major player in this area.

Just my opinion, is that the mining and processing of uranium, lithium, rare earths or whatever mineral you can name, can be done safely and cleanly, or it can be done sloppily and dirty. It depends on how tightly it is controlled, and the motivations of the people in charge.

  • Pete
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And what about all the waste streams? How clean is nuclear?

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There lots of radioactive mining sites with radioactive waste in the US that have not been properly secured.

Regardless of how uranium is extracted from rock, the processes leave behind radioactive waste. For example, the solid radioactive wastes that are left over from the milling processes are called tailings and the liquid wastes are called raffinates. Mill tailings and raffinates are stored in specially designed ponds called impoundments. The tailings remain radioactive and contain hazardous chemicals from the recovery process.

https://www.epa.gov/radtown/radioactive-waste-uranium-mining…

What You Can Do:

  1. Avoid both abandoned and operating mining sites and equipment. This will limit your exposure to potential radioactive wastes stored on-site.
  2. Obey safety instructions. Follow all posted warnings and safety guidance near operating or abandoned mining sites. You should never:
  • Swim in or drink the water from open pit mine lakes.
  • Drink the water from streams and springs near either abandoned or operating uranium mines.
  • Remove rock or soil from a uranium mine.

Jaak

Lithium is not radioactive.

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And what about all the waste streams? How clean is nuclear? Is it sustainable?

The only stable, reliable source of electricity that can compete with nuclear for cleanliness OR containment of the waste stream, is hydro. Coal, oil, and natural gas are utterly blown out of the water. (Solar and wind aren’t stable and reliable. If we figure out how to make tidal power practical, it’ll be a form of hydro.)

As long as we stick with stuffing our reactors full of uranium - and don’t build a lot of breeder reactors - it’s arguable whether nuclear is more sustainable than oil, gas, or coal. But if we switch to mixing lots of thorium with that uranium, then nuclear is, again, clearly better than the big fossil fuels, and in fact may beat solar (depending on how good we get at recycling old solar panels).

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I may be out of date, but Mosaic used to extract uranium from the phosphate rock used to make fertilizer in Florida. They used an AEC process that produced yellow cake uranium.

I thought uranium enrichment was done at Oakridge, Tenn. Is that plant still running? Old technology?

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Mosaic website says nothing about uranium but following article shows most uranium produced in the US does in fact come from phosphate rock as a by-product of production of phosphoric acid.

https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acs.est.9b07859

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Mosaic website says nothing about uranium but following article shows most uranium produced in the US does in fact come from phosphate rock as a by-product of production of phosphoric acid.
https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acs.est.9b07859

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I don’t think so. From the link above…

Techniques to recover uranium from phosphoric acid, a liquid, intermediate product of phosphate-fertilizer production, are well-known (1,2) and were used in the United States and, to a smaller extent, elsewhere on an industrial scale until the late 1990s, when uranium prices plummeted, making recovery uneconomic for fertilizer producers.

The graph provided in that link is somewhat difficult to read, but I believe it shows “Historic Uranium Recovery from Phosphates” (blue bars) from the late 1970s to the mid to late 1990s.

The following link indicates US uranium mining is done in the West, mostly New Mexico and Wyoming, and use traditional mining techniques, as well as In-Situ Leaching (ISL) techniques. But, it also says the US needs to import much more than what is domestically produced.

https://www.world-nuclear.org/information-library/country-pr…

  • Pete
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I thought uranium enrichment was done at Oakridge, Tenn. Is that plant still running? Old technology?

Enrichment at Oak Ridge was shut down years ago. As stated in an earlier post, the only US enrichment plant in operation is in New Mexico, and is run by Urenco with (European) centrifuge technology.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Enrichment_Facility

  • Pete
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As far as I know, the only clean form of nuclear power is nuclear fusion.

Are there really any nuclear plant designs that are so foolproof that not even Beavis and Butthead could screw up? Is there a solution to the nuclear waste problem? How safe are the processes of mining and refining the uranium?

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Is there a solution to the nuclear waste problem?

Yes, as long as we keep the politicians out of it. EVERY other issue we have an embarrassing multitude of solutions that work.

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As far as I know, the only clean form of nuclear power is nuclear fusion.

Are there really any nuclear plant designs that are so foolproof that not even Beavis and Butthead could screw up? Is there a solution to the nuclear waste problem? How safe are the processes of mining and refining the uranium?

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We do not know that nuclear fusion is clean, and until it is developed in about 100 years we will not know if it is clean.

There are NO fission nuclear plants that are foolproof and human proof for the following reasons: Humans cause of some nuclear accidents through faulty operations. Humans do not always properly design and build for worst case environmental hazards. Humans do not always maintain and repair nuclear plants to keep them safe. Nuclear plants are highly vulnerable in war zones to man made disasters.

Nuclear waste can be stored in proper geologically stable underground repositories. However, the nuclear waste needs to be monitored and maintained in safe condition for long periods of time.

Jaak

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As far as I know, the only clean form of nuclear power is nuclear fusion.

Are there really any nuclear plant designs that are so foolproof that not even Beavis and Butthead could screw up? …

Yes! As Elon Musk says, the most powerful, clean, foolproof, and safe nuclear fusion reactor in the Solar System is right up there above our heads. And it’s free, day after day! More and more of us are taking advantage of it all the time.

(Our Airstream trailer powered itself on 400 Watts solar… summer and winter.)

Your old fishin Fool,

SpeyCaster

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Are there really any nuclear plant designs that are so foolproof that not even Beavis and Butthead could screw up?

You can go overboard with safety. How much is enough? Tough question but there has to be a limit.

The Captain

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Yes! As Elon Musk says, the most powerful, clean, foolproof, and safe nuclear fusion reactor in the Solar System is right up there above our heads.

Really? The design is known to be faulty. The by products of the fusion reaction are being stored inside the reactor under pressure. That pressure is growing and will eventually overwhelm the containment structures, resulting in a runaway fusion reaction that will not bode well for life on earth.

While it looks safe right now, it is really nothing more than a ticking time bomb.

—Peter

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