Livongo purchased by Teledoc

I have a reasonable explanation for this that doesn’t involve doom and gloom. However, the inner workings of business deals are absolutely not things I know anything about, so perhaps someone in the know can correct me where I’m wrong, or confirm if I might be on the right track.

Financial deals take time. They’re messy. Heck, when I bought my house over a decade ago, and when I re-financed 3 years later (pre-Rocket Mortgage), there was a lot of paperwork involved, and multiple visits to go over and sign documents. And that’s just a house. I can’t even imagine what’s involved to acquire a company.

How long does that take? One month? Two months? At what point does the selling price get set in stone? (Asking because I really have no idea.)

LVGO was $77 a month ago. It was $57 two months ago. Maybe the deal was made with the LVGO folks not thinking that they’d be getting not a 10% mark-up in share price, but a 100%+ mark-up? Perhaps some of the run-up in price over the last month is due to knowledge of this deal leaking? Or it’s unrelated, but bad luck for LVGO, in hindsight.

Of course, you can argue such a merger is smart, due to LVGO’s 100% YoY growth. But even if it’s not optimal, there are explanations for why they might want to, assuming they thought they’re getting a ~100% mark-up. It’s like why people take the lump sum after winning the lottery. Or maybe they think that together, they’ll be able to build the most dominant largest telehealth player in the country together.

I also have mixed feelings about this, and am not sure how much of my LVGO (4th largest position at 12%) I’ll keep. But here’s what I know for sure: I’m going to wait to see what Bert says about this. These kind of things make the price of his TickerTarget newsletter more than worth it.

Matt

P.S.: Portfolio management (should I sell before or after the merger) are OT!!! So are questions about what happens to your shares. Please don’t ask any others, and if you reply to them, do so off-board. Thank you!

16 Likes

We are in the crazy-times.

Wait a little to see what develops. Or “Bolt.” it is your choice. Thoughts:

The downside is if the market hates this deal and crushes TDOC, crushing the exchange value for LVGO… but if anything, Saul’s question seems most relevant “Why sell a company increasing revs at 125% YoY for a 10% premium?”

Either the market will think TDOC is genius or the market will think LVGO management sold for a Reason.

They could have been working this deal for 6 weeks, after agreeing to a range of values for their companies, and LVGO just kept rising out of the range this past month. Tullman may have zero experience with managing a high growth company and the stock market behaviors and expectations for such. Maybe he underestimated Livongo’s premium valuation potential? Certainly could have floated convertible bonds to raise a giant bunch of cash at Livongo, if they wanted…

I don’t know if insiders own enough shares to push this deal through, but I can’t see why minority shareholders would approve of this deal. The supposed (low) 10% premium is now almost zero based on pre-market prices. Extremely puzzling and frustrating deal for a LVGO shareholder.

No. of Recommendations: 0
I don’t know if insiders own enough shares to push this deal through, but I can’t see why minority shareholders would approve of this deal. The supposed (low) 10% premium is now almost zero based on pre-market prices. Extremely puzzling and frustrating deal for a LVGO shareholder.

The boards represent the shareholders, both have already approved the deal. I don’t think it can go to a vote unless somebody else where to try to offer a better deal which would make the board have to reconsider. One month or two months ago, there wouldn’t be much of a complaint.

The deal is still subject to shareholder approval.

Alex

Okay, if Livongo REALLY thought that they were wide open to grow forever, WHY, OH WHY would they sell at a 10% premium if they were growing at 125%?

Does the fact that they’re merging with a company growing 85% (and getting shares in that company) make a difference?

Also, they’ve nearly doubled in just a month when they pre-announced earnings. I know they also did that in the previous quarter, but maybe that was a way for them to prove their value while the talks were ongoing?

I’m not a fan of the deal, as I never loved the business model of TDOC.

6 Likes

Jeeeez. I’m baffled as to why Livongo would sell themselves for nearly no premium after accelerating revenue growth again (125% is crazy!)

On their conference calls, management has always stated they have great visibility into future revenue, which has always been recurring, and very high margin. This deal may suggest that the revenue growth was to very quickly disappear. I’m really not sure how else to read this and not react this way.

Matt

6 Likes

Okay, if Livongo REALLY thought that they were wide open to grow forever, WHY, OH WHY would they sell at a 10% premium if they were growing at 125%?

Point taken. However, I think LVGO shareholders will retain 48% or so of the new company so they are still in the game. Moreover TDOC has been growing very well. I’m not sure of the growth rate but its up there.

Their thinking seems to be that the combination of the two creates something stronger still in an area and market that is rapidly expanding.

This could very well be a combination that strengthens current growth prospects and cements the position of the new leading company in its ability to deliver two important types of service.

Also, given what others on this board have reported concerning T2D diabetes it seems there is quite a way to go before growth of LVGO market share there begins to abate, leaving aside the question of whether other diseases are susceptible of the same AI approach.

cheers

draj.

2 Likes

No. of Recommendations: 1
Jeeeez. I’m baffled as to why Livongo would sell themselves for nearly no premium after accelerating revenue growth again (125% is crazy!)

On their conference calls, management has always stated they have great visibility into future revenue, which has always been recurring, and very high margin. This deal may suggest that the revenue growth was to very quickly disappear. I’m really not sure how else to read this and not react this way.

I can’t say if 10% premium is acceptable now but 1 or 2 months ago (or even couple of weeks ago), this valuation would have looked very attractive.

All my speculation but I wouldn’t be surprised that one reason LVGO has been on a tear lately was due to the merger talks happening over the last few months. If they had pulled out all of a sudden on the Low premium without it ever being made public, I wouldn’t be surprised that the price would drop as well. The IR dept wouldn’t have an explanation for the rapid increase or drop since non of it is public news.

4 Likes

Saul,
How are you coming up with 10%. I have it at 30%. They are being valued at 18.5 billion so that would give them a share price of $193. $149-$193 = -$44. $-44 / $149 = .29530 that is with a share count of 95.543 million.

Andy

I don’t think it does any good to discuss valuations when we are dealing with a moving target. A few moments ago I calculate LVGO to be worth 133 approx. When the market opened it was 158. The two companies are tied together now and it will take days to sort out some sort of valuation, but clearly the market doesn’t like the deal. OT but I sold covered calls on my entire LVGO position two days ago for a 20 dollar premium. Jan 2021 calls. So I have that little kicker to help, plus the huge run up in LVGO price this year.
Mike

Hi Saul,
Ok now I understand where you are coming from. The problem with all of this is how much is TDOC shares going to be worth when it closes.

The more I see this merger the more I am starting to like it. We have LVGO growing at 125% with 410000 customers and TDOC growing at 80 percent with 51.5 million customers. Both of these merging together. This is going to make them a juggernaut and propel them above all competition instead of slugging it out. I bought more shares and can’t wait to see where this company is in another year or two.

Andy

6 Likes

Doesn’t this deal give the big investors in LVGO control of TDOC? Or am I misunderstanding this? Tullman should now have a large amount of shares of TDOC, more than the TDOC board? I haven’t looked into the numbers… but I remember LVGO insiders held a large chunk of the company. Just something to throw out.

Seems like an extreme overreaction in both the stocks

bnh91

1 Like

this is a surprise… few quick thoughts…

I do not see this negative… it seems lot more positive to me.

remember TDOC also bought InTouch which deals with sensors in healthtech… imagine LVGO is able to offer additional services with InTouch sensors in many more situations…

TDOC’s own organic revenue growth accelerated through this pandemic and jumped above 80%… so it is not a throw-away company to look down upon… in fact, that level of growth belongs to the top tier of stocks favored by this board right alongwith LVGO…

10% premium may just be incidental as both these companies’ stock has been moving a lot in last month… quite possible when they did the deal and set the ratio, the premium looked quite different…
Seeing this 10% as proof of something wrong is just to shallow a look…

I see this deal as creating a behemoth in virtual health sector… which is probably needed and help accelerate both of these companies… .

I am impressed by TDOC CEO Jason Gorevic’s ability to relentlessly work on building TDOC and put together a real force in health care that can deal with entrenched forces like insurers and hospitals… you need a large size to be effective in this business…

wont be surprising to see TDOC coming up with its health insurance in not far future…

Not impossible to see such a company ultimately ends up with Amazon / BirkShire / JPM initiative of creating independent health services…

With LVGO being my largest position and I started buying TDOC after last earning, I may reduce my overall combined position for portfolio management but I intend to hold really large position in merged company… I see it as real answer to many of health care problems in this country and very positive by many angles…

31 Likes

I had the same reaction as Saul when I woke up to this news. Well my ACTUAL reaction was like, “WHuuuuuuuuuuuuut?”

I Took Action

I just sold my entire position and spread it out most of it equally over CRWD, DDOG, and OKTA and bumped NET a little just to keep it balanced.

Why?

Frankly the valuation of the merger - the math - isn’t interesting to me. I mean TDOC went down 10% more than LVGO already, so inputs are noise today anyway, but it REALLY doesn’t matter to me because I’m not interested in the finances. It is simple: This is a major change to my investment “thesis”. Rarely have I seen such an obvious, massive shift, in one single news release.

  1. What kind of management team gives up on their vision while things are going so well?: Whether they got in bed together or it was a mugging, the result is the same. This “merger” is really TDOC swallowing up LVGO. A mission-oriented management (I assume) is out; either not mentioned in the news I read at all or given a token seat on the board (even if it turns out I am wrong on the details, I don’t think it matters). Livongo was helping people with their sights set on expanding that help to more people. We just learned how successful this mission is unfolding, so…they sell out?!

  2. Too complicated: There are too many meta-business concerns here. It is hard enough to find great companies with a clear mission and business model growing fast. I really don’t want to, or need to, mentally deal with what these outside factors mean to the core business over time. I’m just going to the sidelines…well in this case I’m leaving the game early so I don’t have to fight everyone else to get out of the parking lot.

A note as others have asked: In past acquisitions, the price was set right away. If the deal is upheld, from what I have seen it is rarely worth sticking around for the small change settled by arbitrage unless you want to keep the new shares, I guess.

This is the noise I expect to continue:

  • “synergy” discussions. How long will this take to play out? The businesses and models make more sense separate to me. TDOC WILL figure out how to stitch them together and improve their business, otherwise they will have a lot of angry investors! How do these fit together…?:
  1. A data-driven AI platform to coach people who suffer from extremely complex chronic conditions who win customers by saving them money and win users by providing value.
  2. Teledoc.
    …My best guess is Teledoc wants the data and device/app so if I am a Livongo user I will be able to hit a button to connect with a doctor and ask for help…? A small feature addition. Why not form a partnership and integration. Perhaps TDOC didn’t want it? Regardless the data is the real value. Livongo investors know this was their moat and this “merger” proves it in my mind. The only way to get in to this area was to buy Livongo’s moat and castle together.

BUT… why not do the Buffett-ian thing and keep management doing what they have proven they can do and grow the business. Livongo has powerful relationships with major providers and companies! This would be the other reason to buy Livongo: the customers they won were a major major undertaking. This was the other big part of their moat. Perhaps management weren’t the ones with the connections. Perhaps there was a coup and we’ll see whoever does have these connections in charge next…

…drama in a story can be fun, but not in an investment.

24 Likes

After reading the thread fully, and my post again, I wanted to post one more time and clarify something. My entire post was from the perspective of a Livongo shareholder. I do not own Teledoc so I didn’t have to decide if I would stay in it or not. I’m honestly not sure what I would do. From a Teledoc perspective I would probably want to know more and wait to take action I guess. From the Livongo side, the merger has set the price. I see no reason to participate further. Even if it falls through that is just more drama to deal with. More uncertainty.

1 Like

It is simple: This is a major change to my investment “thesis”. Rarely have I seen such an obvious, massive shift, in one single news release.

Rafe, 10/10. It is simple, and you said it way more simply than I did.

If you were a LVGO owner, this is now NOT the company you invested in.

If you were a TDOC owner, this is now NOT the company you invested in.

This is something else, and you don’t know what their growth will be like, what their future will look like, how the market will value them. You are speculating.

That’s why it’s a sell.

Bear

PS - This will be my last post on this. I hope we can all wind it down.

9 Likes

I generally don’t agree with some of the reasons I’ve seen opposing this deal, with some reasons bordering on emotional rather than rational. I’ve been in since $17 last year and have studied LVGO extensively, but my counter-points are focused on the deal, not the company. So I’m going to lay out my rational for at least holding for a few days:

10% premium is too low: Ok, everyone and their grandmother knew that LVGO had a stretched valuation. Last Tuesday, the price was $111 and then, 5 business days later, proceeded to hit a high of $150 yesterday! The 10% premium argument is about perspective, and both companies most likely agreed that $150 was not LVGO’s fair value. If you compared merger price to even last week’s $111, the premium approaches 50%. Now I don’t know what they decided the fair value of Livongo was, but I’d like to believe they agreed it was in the low-$100s. If this deal was announced with the same price last Tuesday, we would’ve been generally happy. I’m good with the price.

Management “giving up” while they’re doing so well: I disagree with this reasoning, mainly because I view this as a “goal of helping people trumps independence” merger. In other words, even if your company is doing extremely well financially, if your vision is to cure/manage the most pressing chronic conditions and someone gives you the opportunity to accelerate it, why wouldn’t you take it if you actually believe in managing chronic conditions? My example is Instagram and Facebook. Instagram was well on their way to being a social media powerhouse, growing something like 1700% week-over-week, but they agreed to be acquired by Facebook because 1) FB had the resources to get them to where they wanted to go WAYYY quicker and 2) Facebook would’ve competed with them if they said no, which would’ve been a bloodbath.

Given that Livongo had a much more altruist vision than Instagram, it makes sense that they’ll do whatever it takes to help people . TDOC also saw that the market for applied health management was ripe with opportunity, so they were either going to build or acquire. Rather than fight at the expense of the people Livongo was trying to help, wouldn’t it be easier to take TDOC’s tremendous resources and client base and reach your goal faster, assuming your goal is to help people?

TDOC’s management concerns: Fair point. It’s subjective, so no argument from me.

Investment thesis has changed and has created confusion: Yes, the these has changed dramatically! As Bear said, this is not the company I invested in, but that is true for literally every merger and acquisition. Speculation is defined by how unclear you are about the companies prospects. No, I don’t know what growth will be like, but unless TDOC’s management decides to go absolutely insane, I can’t see a possible reason why growth would be worse than their blended average. This is a very different company, but the opportunity for TDOC and LVGO to completely dominate not just applied health management, but the ENTIRETY of telemedicine excites me.

My money can be better utilized in another stock: Another fair point. For people new to this board, I think its important to point out that when Saul and others leave a stock, they don’t necessarily expect it to go down, they just think other companies are going to do better. Prime examples are Shopify and Twilio. If I recall correctly, Saul exited Shopify in the $200 or $300’s, while he exited Twilio at ~$100. Well, both have gone on to have tremendous returns, but the stocks he left SHOP and TWLO for have done even better. The stocks that are “abandoned” on this board can still do extremely well and beat the market by a large margin, but your allocation depends on how aggressive you want to be.

There are probably other points that I disagreed or agreed with, but I don’t remember them at the moment. I’m definitely in a holding pattern until I learn more, but I see this merger as a positive. A TDOC/LVGO company is going to be an undisputed powerhouse in telemedicine and will be firmly in-charge of the industry’s penetration in our everyday lives. That’s what I invest in, companies that have enough power and influence to dictate where their industry goes, and this industry happens to be a medium-to-long term behemoth. I’ll probably trim a bit because I don’t want 15% of my portfolio in TDOC, but this is still a long-term hold.

CloudAtlas

94 Likes

If I recall correctly, Saul exited Shopify in the $200 or $300’s, while he exited Twilio at ~$100. Well, both have gone on to have tremendous returns, but the stocks he left SHOP and TWLO for have done even better.

Your comment caused me to check back. SHOP is now $1,094. Saul sold 3/4 of his SHOP position by the end of July 2018. SHOP closed on 7/31/18 at $138; I didn’t check to see when he sold the remaining 1/4. But from 7/31/18 that is a gain of about 693%. I’m not sure how many SaaS stocks have matched that performance. AYX is up about 360% and DDOG is up about 348% since that date. I hold Saul in very high regard, but no one should doubt that in hindsight it would have been better to stay in SHOP rather than sell in July 2018.

9 Likes

LVGO was my largest holding before today. It is now in solid second. The below quote is the focus of my decision, which I’ll break down after:

"My money can be better utilized in another stock: Another fair point. For people new to this board, I think its important to point out that when Saul and others leave a stock, they don’t necessarily expect it to go down, they just think other companies are going to do better. Prime examples are Shopify and Twilio. If I recall correctly, Saul exited Shopify in the $200 or $300’s, while he exited Twilio at ~$100. Well, both have gone on to have tremendous returns, but the stocks he left SHOP and TWLO for have done even better. The stocks that are “abandoned” on this board can still do extremely well and beat the market by a large margin, but your allocation depends on how aggressive you want to be."

There are a host of earnings reports coming up in short order. My allocation to LVGO is now in question as no news is likely to drive the price (except digesting the news we already know).

However, this is NOT the case for several other companies that are due to report:

I’m looking at you: DDOG, ZM, and CRWD.

By trimming the position in LVGO and putting it in 3rd tier allocations, I can free up significant funds to place an additional conviction to ZM and DDOG.

2 Likes