I don’t see the difference. The unvaccinated know they are unvaccinated. They chose to take the risk.
Did a 5 year old choose to take the risk?
Pete
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No but secondhand smoke is.
And I understand the point that children are at the mercy of their parent’s decisions. But it’s like that for many things. Car seats, bike helmets, health care, etc.
When it comes to vaccination, do you understand that children are at the mercy of other parents’ decisions. I don’t understand why this gets overlooked.
A parent deciding to not vaccinate their child puts the community at risk. If the consequences were isolated to only those numbskulls making dumb-dumb decisions, I’d be super cool with it.
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Every time the local Detroit news reports another horrific case of child neglect/abuse, I keep thinking of the nutters howling about big gummit interfering with “parent’s rights”. Multiple cases of parents torturing/killing their children don’t seem to make an impression with them. Maybe if we have a massive polio outbreak?
Steve
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But the link I posted from the Mayo Clinic says it’s “highly unlikely”
So where is the risk to vaccinated students?
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Children are not fully vaccinated until 4-6 years old. They go to libraries, grocery stores, parks, and tons of other places. I don’t mean to be disrespectful…but really? What’s so hard to understand about herd immunity?
I guess I should thank you for providing insight into why we’re completely screwed. Thanks…I guess.
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Rhymes with “freedumb rash and fries”.
Now they need to be changed–again.
The risk is that not enough people get vaccinated to stop the disease. That is what stopped polio and other diseases. Some people believe that vaccinations make you immune to disease. That couldn’t be further from the truth. What they do is make the disease less lethal. If enough people are vaccinated then the disease will eventually be stomped out, but the problem is that if enough people are not vaccinated it will keep mutating till eventually it finds another path. Some diseases mutate so fast that it is hard to even keep up with the vaccinations, ie the flu. But to say a vaccination is worthless only because you caught the disease is not the correct way to look at it. What you should be saying is did I live through the disease. Even the flu can kill.
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Evolution is at play here, both in the human population and the pathogen.
Because of genetic and demographic variability, humans may vary greatly in their vulnerability. People with asthma may be more vulnerable to respiratory infections (as one example), older may be more vulnerable than younger, there is a very long list of these kinds of variabilities.
Also, vaccination may not provide absolute protection. (How much in the biological world is absolute? Not much, because of vast genetic and environmental variability.)
But, if enough people are vaccinated to limit the spread of the pathogen, at least two things happen that benefit the broader community. First, fewer people in the community are infected, reducing the numbers of vulnerable people who get infected. Second, the opportunity for the pathogen to reproduce is reduced, limiting the opportunities for natural selection and mutation (evolutionary forces) to operate to produce a new variant that might be more effective at causing human harm (worse symptoms, more efficient spread, faster reproduction, more lethal, cross species spread)…
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Goofy,
It is
TIPFA time.
That might just mean To Insist Properly Formed Assumptions.
Sure
Says here they start at 12 to 15 months. I’m not sure they are “fully” vaccinated then.
CDC recommends that people get MMR vaccine to protect against measles, mumps, and rubella. Children should get two doses of MMR vaccine, starting with the first dose at 12 to 15 months of age, and the second dose at 4 through 6 years of age.
Measles, Mumps, and Rubella (MMR) Vaccination | CDC
Glad I could give you some insight.
Have you ever read Saul Alinsky (Seen it spelled Sol Lewinsky too)?
- “Ridicule is man’s most potent weapon.” There is no defense. It’s irrational. It’s infuriating. It also works as a key pressure point to force the enemy into concessions.
I get the impression that you think I’m antivaccine. Why would you think that? Not that it’s anybody’s business but my parents had me receive all of the childhood vaccines that were common in the late 50’s early 60’s. And we did our children the same in the late 80’s.
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Hi @gcr2016
I don’t believe you directly answered the question about herd immunity and its benefits per se.
Question for you is, do you believe in the benefits of herd immunity for protecting not just the immunized individual, but also protecting that individual’s broader community and society at large?
(As explained upthread: herd immunity reduces spread thereby protecting more vulnerable individuals and also by reducing opportunities for further deleterious evolution of the pathogen)
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Thanks for the reply. Not really intended to be a knock on you specifically. More of a social commentary.
It’s 2025 and we’re now debating the benefits of herd immunity. I find this to be completely ridonculous. Again, not you specifically, but rather the situation we’re in.
Maybe you aren’t anti-vaccine, your comments seem to question the societal harm imposed by those who are. This isn’t a “different strokes, by different folks” situation.
Anti-vaxers need to be checked, not justified. It’s a public health concern, and also impacts our food supply.
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Here’s a Mayo Clinic timeline:
{ 1954
Drs. John F. Enders and Thomas C. Peebles isolate the measles virus, called the Edmonston strain, in tissue. It’s used to develop many other vaccines.
1963
Dr. Enders and his colleagues develop the live attenuated Edmonston B measles vaccine. This vaccine and a second measles vaccine are licensed in 1963. Two other live attenuated measles vaccines will be licensed in 1965 and 1968. More than 500,000 cases of measles occurred each year in the U.S. in the 20th century compared with 47 cases in 2023.
1971
The measles, mumps and rubella vaccines are combined into the measles-mumps-rubella (MMR) vaccine in the U.S. }
History of measles: Outbreaks and vaccine timeline.
Measles vax in 1963.
Better vaxxes in 1965 n 1968.
I had wild type, pathogenic measles before 1963. Due to international travel, I’ve had MMR vax, too.
NPR’s “expert” recommends a MMR booster if:
{ CDC recommends an additional dose of measles vaccine for adults who are considered at high risk. That includes people who are in
- college settings,
- work in health care,
- live or are in close contact with immunocompromised people, or
- are traveling internationally. }
(I reformatted/bulleted the “list”).
As measles cases rise in the U.S., some adults may need a vaccine booster : Shots - Health News : NPR.
Other than that, MMR vaccine and wild pathogenic exposure are generally believed to provide lifelong immune protection against measles.
Mumps may “wear off”.
IDK about rubella.
FWIW
ralph gets every vax offered, and recommends everyone else do the same.
Like @gcr2016 I’m not personally worried.
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I believe in herd immunity. Vaccinated and natural immunity.
What I don’t get concerned about is what others are choosing to do when it comes to their health decisions. If I’m vaccinated and you’re not, why should I fear that? Either my vaccine is going to protect me or it’s not. Maybe I have more faith in the vaccine than I should.
On the other hand, I don’t take every vaccination that is available. Specifically, I’ve never had a flu shot. At 67 I’ve never had the flu. I’m blessed with a very good immunity system.
As an example, my wife worked in health care and was required to have a flu shot every year. She was exposed daily to a lot of nasty illnesses and no doubt the flu shot kept her healthy. The year that H1N1 was making the rounds her flu shot did not prevent her from becoming ill. She was very sick and missed a week’s work. I kissed her in the morning and evening, held her when she needed it and slept in the same bed with her. I would say I was heavily exposed to the virus and yet I never became ill. So I see no reason to take a flu shot but I’m sure there are people here that believe I should.
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Ok, given that we can agree on the concept of herd immunity (as defined upthread), do you believe in public policy that supports herd immunity and thus the community benefits that come from herd immunity?
I think, based on your replies above, your answer is no. Do I have that right or am I missing something?
Anyone who is vulnerable or cares about someone in the vulnerable population might have concern. Then there is the further societal risk and associated costs of facilitating/accelerating the pathogen’s evolution:
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Support it, yes. Demand it, no.
I guess I don’t understand why someone is vulnerable if they are vaccinated.
As for the pathogen evolving, I think the risk is very low when the numbers infected are low. I believe the original article said there were 99 people infected with Measles.
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Here I am talking in general terms, for any pathogen, measles, flu, etc.
Regardless of the specific pathogen, as mentioned above, in general vaccines are not 100%/absolute protective. They are certainly on average more protective than no vaccine - this is what is demonstrated in clinical trials with rigorous experimental design (controlled, randomized, replicated).
That’s why some people may still be at risk, but especially people with certain conditions and older people who, as we know, have weaker immune systems. For measles, my understanding is that younger people are more vulnerable, relative to the general population.
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I agree. I think we just disagree on whether vaccinations should be mandatory.
Here are a couple of links on measles vaccination rates in the U.S. and current cases in the U.S. There has been an uptick in cases in the past 2 years. So the questions for me are, how much of the increase is due to lower vaccination rates? And how much of the increase should be contributed to unvaccinated people arriving from other countries?
According to the data from the CDC, measles-mumps-rubella (MMR) vaccination rates for kindergarteners in the United States dropped from 95% in the 2019-2020 school year to approximately 93% in the 2022-2023 school year.
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