More EV stuff - the "Surprise" rental EV

[GDavenport]

MarkR,

The plant is in Cressona, PA. I actually tried this advice during the last trip. Unfortunately, I found no chargers at the WaWa I stopped at.

A site check this evening indicates that the closest WaWa is in Hamburg, PA which is 23 minutes out of town. I’m not sure if that’s the one I stopped at when I searched last time for a charger, if so, no chargers were there that I saw.

I don’t stop in the morning for breakfast when my day starts at 4am.

I’m not trying to be difficult, but that’s the reality in this area.

edit to add: I actually appreciate the support. I’m telling it like I see it. Your help will reduce my burden if I have to accept another EV in the future.

Doing all this extra planning really seems like a burden…

[buynholdisdead]

@MarkR

If they’re even more clever, they will install superchargers on/near site, so they can also capture some of the profit margin on electricity that their customers need to re-charge the cars before returning them.

That isn’t how it works Mark. They will charge you twice as much if you do not have the car fully charged when it comes in. All without have to install any infrastructure.

Andy

[jerryab2]

@GDavenport

During the week, after dealing with the host of very complex problems that our teams face, driving somewhere to charge up an EV which is not your restaurant, nor your hotel is not a viable solution.

If a number of people are sent to that facility on a regular basis, and they have to rent cars from Hertz, then it is the responsibility of the company to have chargers installed at that facility. It is not an if question, it is when. Particularly as it makes their employees more productive when they are sent to that location. EV is then NOT an issue–and problem solved.

[Goofyhoofy]

@jerryab2

If a number of people are sent to that facility on a regular basis, and they have to rent cars from Hertz, then it is the responsibility of the company to have chargers installed at that facility. It is not an if question, it is when.

Nobody is arguing that someday things will be better, and someday the market will magically solve all problems and someday …

The complaint was about “today”, and then the fanbois complained - and loudly - that it was somehow the OPs fault and that he was too stupid to figure out ahead of time how to charge his car in a place where there are no chargers and that he should get up at 3AM or have breakfast at WaWa instead of 1) renting a car which served his needs, as had been promised by the car rental company, and as is required by his company.

Complicated question, I admit. Maybe AI can solve it. Can we just download that with an update?

[MarkR]

@Goofyhoofy

that he should get up at 3AM or have breakfast at WaWa

This is what we call arguing/discussing in bad faith. The fact that it wasn’t a normal workday, where you normally eat breakfast somewhere before going to work, wasn’t mentioned before I made that offhand comment. The point was that instead of “spending an extra 52 minutes”, just charge while you’re eating breakfast anyway so no extra time wasted. In any case, the statement can still apply to lunch or dinner … you’re going to eat some meals at some time during the day.

@Goofyhoofy

as had been promised by the car rental company

Car rental companies don’t promise anything. And they have plenty of weasel clauses to negate any implied promise. In general, the best “promise” they might make is that they will have a car in your reserved class or higher. I was a semi-road-warrior for 20+ years and any road warrior knows that you can’t depend on the car rental companies for anything at all. Heck, I once arrived at LAX at 11pm and they (Hertz) had no car for me until after 12:30am. Then they gave me a large SUV when I specifically ordered a medium sedan. This was a personal trip, and I was paying for gasoline, and I wanted a vehicle that I could park easier than a huge SUV. But that’s all they had for me.

[Goofyhoofy]

@MarkR

This is what we call arguing/discussing in bad faith. The fact that it wasn’t a normal workday, where you normally eat breakfast somewhere before going to work, wasn’t mentioned before I made that offhand comment. The point was that instead of “spending an extra 52 minutes”, just charge while you’re eating breakfast anyway so no extra time wasted. In any case, the statement can still apply to lunch or dinner … you’re going to eat some meals at some time during the day.

This is what we call “assuming everyone is like you.” I don’t eat breakfast, I have a banana. During my corporate days my lunch generally consisted of a Subway sandwich eaten at my desk, and usually someone brought it back for me. And for dinner I’d head home, or if I was somewhere overnight I’d eat at the hotel - which, as the OP said - did not have any chargers, nor any nearby.

Now if you want to say “You should change your life around so that you can charge your car” you are welcome to make that argument, but I don’t think it’s as strong as you think, especially to someone saying “I reserved a gas powered car.” Hertz (and others) specifically give that option (and they often charge a premium for an EV).

@MarkR

Car rental companies don’t promise anything

Sure they do. That they sometimes fail doesn’t mean they don’t promise, and the OP said he was specifically directed to use only Hertz, so he’s caught.

[MarkR]

@Goofyhoofy

Now if you want to say “You should change your life around so that you can charge your car” you are welcome to make that argument, but I don’t think it’s as strong as you think

Those who believe global warming is truly a grave emergency would make this argument, and it would be one of the best arguments (for changing ones habits regarding driving/fueling) out there. For a few reasons:

1. EVs are about 3 times as efficient as ICE vehicles with regards to energy usage for driving.
2. EVs can get more efficient/cleaner over time, because as electricity is generated in better/cleaner ways, the EV benefits commensurately. Not so with an ICE, if your new ICE gets 25 mi/gal today, it will still get 25 mi/gal in 10 years from now when it is still on the road.
3. EVs have less/simpler/cleaner maintenance requirements. For example, there is no need to change the oil in an EV and dispose of the dirty 5 or 6 quarts every six months or so. Another example, Brakes tend to last a lot longer and thus fewer brake pads and rotors need to be disposed of during their lifespan.

@Goofyhoofy

Hertz (and others) specifically give that option

I just went to the Hertz website and went through the process of reserving a car at a local airport. I chose “medium sedan” (this is what most companies require you to choose while on business travel), and this is the information screen at the end, right before clicking checkout. Notice what bullet point 2 says.

Just for fun, I tried some other vehicle types. Most have the same bullet point somewhere in the list. Here’s “large luxury sedan”.

[GDavenport]

All,

The conversation is all the better from perspectives.

Since the fleet changes have caught out many travelers, some of whom expected to choose when, where and how they would experience EVs. This has disrupted at least one traveler.

The alternatives to “help” are appreciated but fall well short of reasonable for business purposes. Since there is no easy answer except donate a bunch of time to the ‘cause’, I expect to run into people who I will empathize with and try to help while this problem continues.

Of note, I am in a position to significantly influence our company preferences. I view this as risk mitigation to enable our people to be the most successful.

While this anecdote and thread has been diverted largely to my experiences in central PA, it is applicable to many regions in the US outside dense urban areas.

I’m taking this to our team to discuss what we should do internally to ensure Me, my team and other teams are not “stuck” with EVs. (I did not say throw EVs out)

The last thing I want is my lead PLC technician thinking about whether he can make it to the next stop instead of how much ramp he should put in the 1500bar cylinder load cycle.

[jerryab2]

@GDavenport

I’m taking this to our team to discuss what we should do internally to ensure Me, my team and other teams are not “stuck” with EVs. (I did not say throw EVs out)

The last thing I want is my lead PLC technician thinking about whether he can make it to the next stop instead of how much ramp he should put in the 1500bar cylinder load cycle.

You have identified a valid business reason for the company to pay to have chargers installed at that location (and perhaps other locations as well?). “Peace of mind” applies to people when they are at work. And you (i.e. the company) do NOT want people distracted from important work while on the job. It will also save the company money as they will no longer have to pay for “marked up” charge fees at hotels, etc. Employee charge at work, with the cost paid by the company. Having the car not fully-charged when returned to Hertz is an expected cost as it is unreasonable to have (or expect) employees try to find a place to charge near the vehicle return area.

[Goofyhoofy]

@jerryab2

You have identified a valid business reason for the company to pay to have chargers installed at that location (and perhaps other locations as well?).

Salespeople visit dozens of locations every month. Engineers travel to handle ptoblems at plants far and wide. At Westinghouse our corporate overlords were on an aiplane constantly, if not visiting a location, then a trade conference, a sports venue, a convention center or one of a dozen other places. Saying “they should” is self evident. The fact is “they haven’t”. Yet. Someday they will but in the meantime people are mightily inconvenienced.

[jerryab2]

The key point is one you omitted: Multiple employees are having the same problem AND it can not (or will not) be fixed by Hertz. Plus, this is location to which employees from elsewhere are sent to do company work. Salespeople are not the same category. Engineers are–and they are the ones having the problems. Executives, etc are also in a differerent category.

[ItsGoingUp]

@GDavenport

The plant is in Cressona, PA. I actually tried this advice during the last trip. Unfortunately, I found no chargers at the WaWa I stopped at.

There is a Tesla supercharger station in Hamburg, PA. If you had any idea what you were doing in your rental Tesla, the navigation would have taken you right there. It is on your way with no more detour required than a convenient gas station. You pass it whether you go through Allentown or Reading from the Philadelphia airport.

In fact along either route, there are five different Tesla supercharger stations right on your way. Your claim of a 52-mile detour on a special route is bizarre and incorrect. Care to reveal how you came to that conclusion?

@GDavenport

I don’t stop in the morning for breakfast when my day starts at 4am.

I’m not trying to be difficult, but that’s the reality in this area.

The reality in that area is that there are a bunch of superchargers convenient to your route from/to the airport. There wasn’t any need for anything else (hotel or dining charging), not even a little.

@GDavenport

Doing all this extra planning really seems like a burden…

The planning consists of using the navigation to route to your destination and supercharging while you relax. Convince me there’s any more to it than that. It’s like you’re reporting facts from an alternate universe.

And spending a few minutes supercharging near the airport solves the problem of returning the car with some charge.

The problems you are describing were indeed problems ten years ago. Now? Not in the slightest.

-IGU-

[GDavenport]

IGU,

Actually read what I wrote. (and several people quoted)

52 minutes, not miles.

Also, there are no chargers at the WaWa. Hamburg is in the wrong direction from the plant despite the small number of miles. If I have no range, my alternative is to use up miles and time to drive around to charge? Kinda circular, I think.

Now, I’m no expert in Teslas, so, I’d ordinarily defer except:

You cannot guarantee the EV is fully charged from the rental place.
You cannot guarantee that the traffic and travel situation will allow for an optimum trip.
Geography, topography,…

As a result, this 90ish mile drive becomes less pleasant and longer on the way to a busy week at work.

If I were planning to use an EV, I would safely choose a closer point to recharge along the way and would not feel comfortable recommending this to others.

But why would I plan to stop when I can just use an ICE car and travel the whole week without a second’s thought about “charging” at all? (no gas needed for this trip in the 8 times I’ve done it with ICE cars).

The surprise EV is really turning into a miserable reality, even when planned.

Even if the plant gets chargers (which I have already started advocating for), it will not help those hapless people that get stuck with an EV between now and the time those are installed.
Even after the plant gets these options, charging will likely STILL be required along the way until ranges are extended.

This adds to inconvenience and wasted time.

By the way, I was shocked to still have over 1/2 a tank returning my ICE rental from last time. Shocked? Yes, shocked. The EV experience had me questioning my sanity on how easy trips were before I got surprised.

[Goofyhoofy]

@jerryab2

Plus, this is location to which employees from elsewhere are sent to do company work. Salespeople are not the same category.

You’ll have to explain this to me. If salespeople have to travel to a location to make a sale, or even just to schmooze a client, how is that different than an engineer who has to go there to advise on a project? My father did lots of that, one day in-and-out, and others which went for multiple days.

Our salespeople used to do that for national accounts. Even though the advertising eventually came out of New York or Chicago (mostly, with some other regional buying services) they would still travel to see the clients to make the pitch. A friend used to come here to Knoxville to visit several across multiple days. We have Regal Cinemas, Bush’s Beans, Clayton Homes, Covenant Health and several others. She ran herself ragged trying to see them all in two days, she didn’t have a leisurely time to stop for breakfast at WaWa (or whatever.)

I’m not saying this is the great problem of America, or even that it won’t (eventually) be fixed. (And certainly it is better now than just a few years ago.) I am saying I understand the complaint, and you might think a car rental company would be more attuned to the needs of their customers than to put them out to the hinterlands in an automobile which is not convenient or appropriate to the task. Perhaps I expect too much.

[btresist]

@Goofyhoofy

I am saying I understand the complaint, and you might think a car rental company would be more attuned to the needs of their customers than to put them out to the hinterlands in an automobile which is not convenient or appropriate to the task. Perhaps I expect too much.

I think it is survival. Hertz after all did go bankrupt during the pandemic. It reportedly saves 50+% on maintenance costs with Teslas and I’ve heard, but cannot document, that it holds on to its EVs longer. The big rental companies keep their ICEs for only a year or two but Hertz may be using their Teslas for a lot longer.

Hertz says Tesla fleet of rental EVs are 50 pct cheaper to maintain than...

[ItsGoingUp]

@GDavenport

52 minutes, not miles.

Doesn’t matter. The reality on the ground is that it’s zero minutes and zero miles out of your way. If you don’t like Hamburg, then pick any of the other four superchargers directly on your route. You sound like a person standing on a corner with a gas can in hand, wondering why you ran out of gas and there’s nowhere to fill up, while in actuality there are several gas stations in sight.

Claiming that your ignorance is the same as there being no way to accomplish what you want is bizarre. Look at a map. You don’t even need to get clever or go out of your way. There’s charging available all over the place. And the car will take you right there.

@GDavenport

You cannot guarantee the EV is fully charged from the rental place.
You cannot guarantee that the traffic and travel situation will allow for an optimum trip.

You don’t need a charge from the rental place. There are superchargers right outside the airport. You don’t need a trip anywhere close to optimum. With your destination about 100 miles away, you don’t need to charge at all in good conditions, and just a few minutes if things don’t go well. The range of a Tesla would often mean you don’t need to charge at all.

I really don’t know what you’re talking about at all. The scenario you describe is pretty much trivial, and you’re turning it into a big problem. You’re effectively driving right on by a bunch of gas stations and blaming the car when you run out of gas. Well, you say, they didn’t look like the gas stations I’m used to.

-IGU-

[jerryab2]

@Goofyhoofy

You’ll have to explain this to me. If salespeople have to travel to a location to make a sale, or even just to schmooze a client, how is that different than an engineer who has to go there to advise on a project? My father did lots of that, one day in-and-out, and others which went for multiple days.

Easy to tell the difference.

Salesman controls when/where he/she goes, who is seen, when, etc. So who is seen, and when, can be revised if given a vehicle that does not fit the planned schedule (i.e. needs to be recharged ever 6 hrs or whatever).

Engineer has no control over where he/she is sent, when, where, etc. This is at the direction of the company. Plus, there is little/no choice as to vehicle, type of vehicle, and so on. ALL on the company dime, but frustrating to the engineer when given the wrong vehicle (to an engineer, they want to right tool at the right time, not a “one tool fits all”) corporate decision.

[Goofyhoofy]

@jerryab2

Salesman controls when/where he/she goes, who is seen, when, etc. So who is seen, and when, can be revised if given a vehicle that does not fit the planned schedule (i.e. needs to be recharged ever 6 hrs or whatever).

You’re kidding right? Salespeople are at the mercy of the client. Period. I have had salespeople have to travel to the same city 3 times in a month because of the client schedule, not because they thought it was fun to do, but because the ad planning was underway for the season.

[GDavenport]

Thanks for your response, IGU.

As always, your responses are valued in the chorus.

Your points are valid for either type of vehicle being released to the user on empty (charge or fuel). The difference is, I can fill up in 5 minutes with ICE engine and I can get that stop done in less than 15 minutes, round trip, from the highway (often far less).

When the reservoir is 7/8ths full or all the way full, there is an assumption baked in to the mind of the traditional ICE car owner:

1. Gas is available frequently on an adjacent street corner, along the way
2. Range in miles is well beyond 200

As a result of this culture and the immature state of the EV infrastructure, it catches people out.

You don’t address the basic point that I have made many times now:

You are not likely to make it on the trip from PHL to mid central PA without a 30+ minute break (in addition to the detour to get to the station). This is simply not required for ICE vehicles.

EV are inferior due to infrastructure maturity.

I’m aware that you may have a very nice scenario in your head because you have confirmation bias and you have gone long enough since that confirmation bias helped you past the difficulties that you are in an unconsciously compromised decision making process.

I have already sought to learn about the EV transportation (thrown in the deep end is more like it ). I have signed up to champion extending infrastructure at my plants (I go to many). I am looking after my people and the public as I will try to build these such that they are open to visitors as well. These plans will come through in due time, I hope.

In spite of the above, CURRENT EVs are still inferior to ICE vehicles with respect to RANGE and INFRASTRUCTURE.

If you can honestly blindly look past that statement, it is by choice and by bias.

Please read to reflect and to think. You’ll be a better advocate for EVs if you do.

Edit: Grammar

[GDavenport]

Customers vising our facilities are likely having to make compromises today as well as our internal sales people.