Finally (and this is it for me, really) obviously I have a bad track record here having been skeptical and wrong about NVDA, NTNX, and AYX so what the heck do I know. I’m probably wrong about MDB.
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Ajm,
I appreciate the information. Will take a while to digest it. What it does remind me of is Twilio. Insiders and those with knowledge everywhere always said Twilio was the leader, but that competition was fierce, and CAP was waning. And to a degree that has been proven true. The lower end things, like with Okta, have largely become commoditized, but no one has been able to match Twilio on the higher end stuff, and Twilio continues to outgrow the industry as it continues to improve its offerings and grow its customer base. Enterprise is where I said they had to go, and so they are going. Will not comment further on Twilio.
That is what I expect will happen with MongoDB.
Tinker
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I am on an iPad mini and too late to pick and choose sites. The quote below is from the November 2016 Computerworld article that Duma linked to.
Important to put it into the context of the conversation we have been having about MongoDB (MDB), including the real world information given by ajm and Tamhas.
Just as I described, the Mongo database is a work in progress and constantly getting better. Yes, this project by Barclays (and remember this is highly regulated Barclays that can go out of business, executives jailed, etc. if something much less worse happened than what happened to Equifax, and every single piece of data is precious and must not be lost) started out as basically a read only cache, mirror image of what was on the mainframe.
The reason for this, is that the best software are servers you can buy (as obviously Barclays had the resources to buy them) were insufficient to meet customer needs in the new age of apps and the East West, always up cloud era.
Thus, they created a read only cache of the mainframe so that customers could get their balance and transaction information without it ever going down. A big problem in the entire banking industry that regulators are getting on their tails about. And pisses me off as well. It may have something to do with running Safari on Mac, but I am not able to access one of my 3 major accounts at least 1x a week or so. And sometimes this is business critical.
Anyways, as the below indicates, Barclays is now planning (and I am sure it is now up and running) to stop just mirroring the mainframe with the MongoDB, but start using the MongoDB itself as the front facing data vehicle for clients to get their information. In fact, it sounds like the mainframe will now become the backup, and that it worked so well that the Mongo is now the lead database. Don’t beliveve me, read it for yourself.
But the article goes on (I did not paste it for reasons stated above) that more than this, that the MongoDB creates even more capabilities. Have you ever noticed in your bank account that when you go to look at transaction data you get maybe a few days, a week, or a month at most. And then you can customize the date range? Turns out that is a consequence of SQL database shortcomings. The SQL technology is overtaxed by all that data! No Tamhas, not making this up.
However, by using the MongoDB (yes, and I am sure many other open source NoSQL data bases can do it as well, and maybe Hadoop as well (but I know little about this type of database) 100s or thousands of transactions can be accessed at a time remotely by the customer with no drain on the systems!
Further, beyond this, Barclays is talking about making such data available to access through Facebook, et al.
To go even further, Barclays is also talking about more personalized marketing. With the NoSQL, more data can be managed, enabling marketing to individuals to be more individual as it analyzes the data (or more likely machine learning type results).
I mean, WHO KNEW THAT SQL DATABASES WERE THAT LIMITING! Well, now we do.
And btw/ on marketshare of NoSQL databases - from a different source - Mongo has 1/3 or more of the dollar value marketshare for NoSQL databases. That is of course a picture in time, and can change, but NoSQL total revenues was round $370 million, Hadoop around $320 million. That would give Mongo ~1/3 or more total marketshare by dollar. So please, don’t tell me that utterly enormous mindshare is not translating into dollar usage either, even this early in the market.
Finally, all of this was done without the 4.0 multiple document beta. Yes, yes, disclaimer, it might suck! Got it. It might not either. And it will constantly get better.
So the quote I pulled out is as follows, but the information above mostly comes from the Computer World article Duma linked to from late 2016. You can see from the above, and below, just how quickly use cases for MongoDB are being found and growing. Yes, yes, NoSQL databases in general and that market is lead, it appears, by dollar and mindshare by Mongo But the quote below:
Chandrasekaran said that the bank is quickly expanding the use of the ODS platform. This means using it as the “first port of call” for customer data, rather than just as backup for mainframe systems as had initially been intended.
One example he gave was serving up data for online and mobile banking ‘landing pages’. This is one of the most intensive data procedures that the bank will have to perform - querying personal accounts, savings and mortgage databases at once, for instance - and occurs every time a customer logs in to access digital banking services.
“We are hitting the mainframe five million times a day for one of the heaviest queries,” he said.
Instead, Barclays plans to hold the customer data in the ODS platform, allowing it to be retrieved in close to real-time when a customer reaches the landing page.
“[With MongoDB] It is a single lookup and that makes it faster, simpler and extremely cheaper.”. <<<MY EMPHASIS - EXTREMELY CHEAPER. NOT JUST CHEAPER.>>>
This has meant a departure from the initial aim of essentially providing back up to mainframes, and instead benefiting from the advantages of the NoSQL technology.
He said: “What we started off as a resilience use case we are now also making a mainframe offload use case. This is currently in progress and we are hoping to go live by Q2 next year.”
But perhaps Mongo is defrauding everyone when they are making their marketcase, and Barclays is a fluke thing and an experiment, static as it will never expand or improve, and Barclays is willing to put it reputation on the line, and face legal jeopardy with regulators, by moving data intensive mission critical functions from the more expensive, legacy, SQL servers just to save an “extreme” number of dollars.
Tinker
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Finally (and this is it for me, really) obviously I have a bad track record here having been skeptical and wrong about NVDA, NTNX, and AYX so what the heck do I know. I’m probably wrong about MDB.
Hey that would have been a pretty profitable portfolio these past couple years 
AJM:
I have used a bear and bull case analysis on every investment for quite some time and merely invest in probabilities…but we never have certainties.
In the case of MongoDB, if you go back to the original thread and the many others at the NPI and here, you will see that we have been evolving the bull vs bear case:
http://discussion.fool.com/mongodb-revisited-33003303.aspx?sort=…
http://discussion.fool.com/mongo-magic-33003304.aspx?sort=whole#…
http://discussion.fool.com/mongo-and-okta-33007128.aspx?sort=who…
http://discussion.fool.com/mongodb-business-model-33010238.aspx?..
You may find it helpful to consider Mongo in that light…there is no wrong in that analysis…its just laying out potential scenarios.
As regards Mongo, it would be a very high risk investment for the many reasons we have stated. Maybe you don’t care for that…but the analysis can still be rewarding for future investments.
And…as we stated, there will be many potential bites on this apple…earnings after close and the stock lockup expiration on 4/17…so you have plenty of time to assess.
I will be refining the bull/bear analysis in next couple days…would love to have you participate.
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Thanks for the informative discussion. I have a minor question - what is ODS platform? - as mentioned in Tinker’s post:
"Chandrasekaran said that the bank is quickly expanding the use of the ODS platform. This means using it as the “first port of call” for customer data, rather than just as backup for mainframe systems as had initially been intended.
One example he gave was serving up data for online and mobile banking ‘landing pages’. This is one of the most intensive data procedures that the bank will have to perform - querying personal accounts, savings and mortgage databases at once, for instance - and occurs every time a customer logs in to access digital banking services.
“We are hitting the mainframe five million times a day for one of the heaviest queries,” he said.
Instead, Barclays plans to hold the customer data in the ODS platform, allowing it to be retrieved in close to real-time when a customer reaches the landing page."
Thanks,
Dave
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Have I answered my own question?
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However, by using the MongoDB (yes, and I am sure many other open source NoSQL data bases can do it as well, and maybe Hadoop as well (but I know little about this type of database) 100s or thousands of transactions can be accessed at a time remotely by the customer with no drain on the systems!
The uses you describe are all read-only and therefore do not require multi-document ACID transactions. The mainframe is still where the actual work is done. This is just supporting the customer-facing activity.
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Duma and Tinker,
You have shown a very thoughtful and thorough understanding of both the Bull and Bear case surrounding noSql technology, and have have eloquently explained it. Tip of the hat to you.
I would move that we suspend further discussion for now, pending new information which meaningfully impacts this thesis.
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The good news is that Duma and Tinker are very independent minded individuals who will always do and say what they want. The bad new is that within the course of a week we have had two posters on this board who want to shut down discussion.
This is obviously Saul’s board and he can police it however he likes (and does a great job of it).
I have only followed this board for about one year. I read it almost every day, one of my favorite things to do. I find both Tinker and Duma well informed, seasoned investors who freely share their knowledge. Something I appreciate a great deal.
Do not recall a single useful comment from “doppelg36”. Why does he think he has the right to shut down conversation on a topic of great interest to others? Simply do not read or ignore. Wish I knew how to send him a private message and no bother the rest of you.
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Hyde,
Not sure how I raised your ire. In fact, the post was specifically to praise Duma and Tinker and written very intentionally not to step on any toes.
You have shown a very thoughtful and thorough understanding of both the Bull and Bear case surrounding noSql technology, and have have eloquently explained it. Tip of the hat to you.
Duma linked to thorough discussion on NPI http://discussion.fool.com/finally-and-this-is-it-for-me-really-…
And along with this thread, there was another thread with great information added by TechnologyGrowth
http://discussion.fool.com/mongodb-revisited-33003303.aspx?sort=…
I would move that we suspend further discussion for now, pending new information which meaningfully impacts this thesis.
What I am trying to tactfully say is that some comments have been made ( not necessarily by the aforementioned authors ) that look like they are informative, but are in fact just being argumentative. I give this discussion my highest praise by starting a small position in MDB, I’m just requesting that it not get drawn into arguments on statements which are not relevant to the investment story.
Thanks
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Doppel:
No worries, I didn’t take your post as attacking or insulting in any way.
Tinker, I and many on the NPI have perhaps a unique process that has been very rewarding over the years…it is about passion for the process…not necessarily any particular stock…so we hammer the details for a while…good and bad.
We have met some great people over here at Saul’s board and perhaps those that don’t mind that process and particularly if you want to participate, please pop over any time.
Best:
Duma
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I have to ask, what is the NPI? I see it mentioned fairly often.
LF
New Paradigm Investing http://discussion.fool.com/new-paradigm-investing-114933.aspx
Hi hydemarsh,
Wish I knew how to send him a private message and no bother the rest of you.
I expect you might have received a private message like this one by now, but if not you can send one by 1st the usual Post Reply selection. But then after you compose your message, look below the Submit Message Button and you see an auto-filled “Post this reply to the boards”. Uncheck it and instead check the “E-mail this reply to the author”.
That way, the person you want to personally contact gets the mail and the board does not.
Regards,
John
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Uncheck it and instead check the “E-mail this reply to the author”.
Keeping in mind that the email will go out with your email address as the return address. If you don’t want the recipient knowing that…
1 Like