New Mongo thread

https://db-engines.com/en/ranking/document+store

WoW! I just looked at this link that Duma provided. I cannot say (as Burt often says) that I understand exactly how this stuff is calculated, but it does seem to be a way for those who know to rank the popularity of NoSQL databases.

If you look at the numbers, not only is MDB growing faster than anyone else (although not by much, but still faster) it is larger than all the other database competitors combined, by quite a lot! (Okay, I did not actually use a calculator for this, just eyed it. Someone can do the math. But I would not be surprised if Mongo was 2x as large as the rest of the offerings in the world combined).

The more Mongo gets used, the more use cases that will be found, and thus the more it will get used.

The important question is, does this give Mongo a license to print money in the future when it matures. And if so, how much money?

Or is NoSQL destined to be a passing fancy? I doubt Tamhas thinks this, although his posts on the topic would indicate he thinks not much of it. Which is fine, although it does seem to defy the evidence we have.

I have no idea as to the economics here either. Have to have confidence that management knows how to monetize this. DoubleClick never made a real profit, but it ruined out to be an excellent stock, and eventually bought out at a premium, albeit suffering quite a bit when the internet crashed. We all know how much Oracle made, but that was selling bloated on-premise software, which in the end had little competition. No doubt Mongo can charge a premium, but it is not the near monopoly Oracle was.

But answers we cannot all know, all the time. I will just stick with the initial WoW!

Tinker

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I cannot say (as Burt often says) that I understand exactly how this stuff is calculated, but it does seem to be a way for those who know to rank the popularity of NoSQL databases.

If you click the link on the method for calculating the scores, you will see that the score is based on visibility issues, e.g., things like web mentions and google hits and such. This doesn’t really tell you much about how heavily used it is or how significant the usage is. I have seen such tallies for programming languages, for example, and the top scorers are what is trendy, whether or not it is actually being used for anything. Something like COBOL will rank really low, even though there are still more lines of COBOL in production than anything else, simply because no one is interested in it.

Or is NoSQL destined to be a passing fancy? I doubt Tamhas thinks this, although his posts on the topic would indicate he thinks not much of it.

Never said anything of the sort and it has nothing to do with what I think. I am only tempering possible excess enthusiasm.

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<<<If you click the link on the method for calculating the scores, you will see that the score is based on visibility issues, e.g., things like web mentions and google hits and such. This doesn’t really tell you much about how heavily used it is or how significant the usage is. I have seen such tallies for programming languages, for example, and the top scorers are what is trendy, whether or not it is actually being used for anything. Something like COBOL will rank really low, even though there are still more lines of COBOL in production than anything else, simply because no one is interested in it.>>>

Tamhas, but no one wants to invest in COBOL. The point in this chart is to show what people are interested in. Same thing happened with SHOP. SHOP was far, far, far, from the most used platform, but it had far away the most interest in Google searches. Was the primary reason I went 50% SHOP at the time, along with its other attributes.

Here, Mongo has as much top of mind, perhaps more, than SHOP had. Indicating that if you are going to go NoSQL you are very probably going to go Mongo. HArd to argue with that as well. If management can monetize its product, then this is terrific news. Quite the CAP.

Duma,

I am going back through some of the prior thread. Some good points. For each new change in technology platform we almost 100%, get a new leader. Mongo is clearly that leader as NoSQL is the new platform change. Just as ANET became the leader in cloud switches in the data center despite Cisco Still dominating the industry as a whole.

The licensing parameters also is very important. It may be an open source database, but Mongo still controls its use and access and there is only so far you can go with it for free.

Will continue looking. Still in the excitement phase. Shall see if I stay that way.

Tinker

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Tamhas, but no one wants to invest in COBOL.

And yet, were someone to develop a tool which would read COBOL and spit out good code in some modern language, the market would be huge. (It has been tried, but not successfully).

The point is again a point of caution. The people making these inquiries on which this rating is based are mostly programmers, not decision makers. I have no argument with the idea that Mongo is probably winning the mind share battle in NoSQL databases, but that may or may not translate into sales. So far, they seem to be doing well, but a rating like this means almost nothing compared to actual sales figures.

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Tamhas,

I am looking at this from an investment perspective. You find someone who will take COBOLand spit out good modern code let me know.

Until then it is about sales, and about buying assets that are under appreciated.

I am satisfied that Mongo is by far the leading NoSQL database. I am also quite satisfied as to their disruptive nature.

Cisco has moved their mission critical ecommerce to Mongo, even prior to the release of 4.0, which will be beta this summer:

ACID transactions are a key capability for business critical transactional systems, specifically around commerce processing," said Dharmesh Panchmatia, Director of E-commerce, Cisco Systems. “No other database has both the power of NoSQL and cross collection ACID transaction support. This combination will make it easy for developers to write mission critical applications leveraging the power of MongoDB.”

No one else. And this functionality will only improve over time. Investing is being forward looking, not looking back and saying, well, was not sure they could do it. If there is not a degree of risk, then you are buying bonds.

If Cisco is putting its ecommerce processing on Mongo, gotta think it works. Don’t you? Cisco is far from alone.

It appears that customer facing applications, including the supporting transactional data bases, are something SQL does not handle very well. As an example, when one international bank rolled out its mobile phone app to access accounts, the increase in volume swamped the SQL database. They therefore put this mission critical app on Mongo. That is a bank!

The more this happens, the more it will happen. But it is not up to me to argue the case.

Invest now, or invest when it pays dividends. Or somewhere in between. We all have ourinvesting style.

“Might not translate into sales.” Except it has. SHOP’s roll out of credit card processing might not have translated to sales either. That is why you have possibility for superior profit.

If NoSQL databases are going to capture marketshare (which I am 100% sure they will) Mongo will be the largest beneficiary of this.

Tinker

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You find someone who will take COBOLand spit out good modern code let me know.

I know some of the people who have tried. The problem is, as is true of many A to B translation projects, is that even if you manage to produce functional code in the target language, it is pretty much universally terrible code which is nearly impossible to maintain. To get good code, one actually needs to do code => model => code. Unfortunately, the first of these is very hard to effectively automate, so it requires the expertise of individuals who are talented at this particular skill. The second part is more established, but unfortunately not well accepted, except in certain markets where it is required to compete.

"No other database has both the power of NoSQL and cross collection ACID transaction support.

The important qualification here is the combination of NoSQL and cross collection ACID. If you remove the NoSQL part, multi-db ACID transaction support is both highly advanced, but hardly new, i.e., very mature, in relational databases. This is an area where NoSQL is having to play catch-up. And, it is a very difficult problem.

It appears that customer facing applications, including the supporting transactional data bases, are something SQL does not handle very well.

This is not a statement which is supported by reality. To be sure, there are challenges in supporting web and mobile clients and SQL, per se, is not ideal for these interactions. But, SQL is NOT the only way to interact with a relational database. There are products which support REST and OData and other non-SQL technologies and provide the interface to a relational underlying structure. The issue is the overall technology mix and how it works together, not whether the underlying database is relational or not.

Except it has.

And my point is this is what actually matters. If they are succeeding and growing strongly, then that is what they are doing. But, you shouldn’t fool yourself that things like a popularity index or individual cases of some company choosing the product as indicators that wipe out any doubts that you might have from other sources. Probably NoSQL will become increasingly important. Probably it won’t take over from all relational applications. Probably Mongo will be a big player in NoSQL, but it is pretty early in this game. What happens if Oracle suddenly announces a NoSQL product? And, don’t think that the TAM is everything already on a relational DB because that is just not going to happen for inertia reasons, as well as good reasons.

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Tinker:

I think this discussion with Tam has gone as far as it can go. He obviously didn’t know much about Mongo as demonstrated when he said this:

Moreover, the idea that they are competing with relational DB companies is largely fictional since the vast bulk of sales of vendors of relational DBs is to support applications which are inherently dependent on a relational DB.

Errr…what did CSCO use them for??

And, frankly, the almost all of those applications are transactional and thus highly suited to a relational DB and would be greatly harmed by being implemented on anything else.

Errr…”harmed”…what did those many case studies I posted suggest otherwise.

Then to frankly exaggerate the discussion here as though there was hysteria that all databases were migrating to Mongo…good grief…how many more times can we say high risk, volatile, early market, low hanging fruit, new 4.0 not until summer, etc, etc.

For me, the discussion has taken a turn to useless banter…seen it before…never informational our actionable…wasted pontificating about uninformed “data points”.

Anyway…earnings next week…Dreamer, Technologygrowth and Tinker…thanks for the constructive comments.

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Duma,

It is disappointing. First we are treated as if we are idiots and are exaggerating things and have not thought through things. Then we find out he has not really studied the company, at all. And finally instead of answering our specific examples, which came from hard earned diligence, he gives us generalizations.

  • Fine, if Cisco has migrated their business critical, entire, commerce functions to Mongo, which includes the transactional database, contacts, consumer front, mobile, etc. (the whole shebang) then a response would be, “WOW! I did not know that. I will need to look into that.”

  • Or when we brought up that A MAJOR INTERNATIONAL BANK switched their entire transactional and customer facing ecommerce operation, again mission critical to Mongo because SQL database could not keep up with increased demand…we are told as yo quote “and frankly all those applications are transactional and thus highly suited to relational DB…” THEN WHY DID THE BANK MOVE TO THE NoSQL database!!! Were they just stupid?

  • I already laid out why. SQL databases are based on the old on-premise paradigm. The larger the database and the more intense it is worked, the more computer processing power you need. When demand goes up, so does the need for more computing power. SQL databases DO NOT scale well enough to deal with the mobile and cloud world of real time apps.

  • NoSQL databases do not work on the same premise. They can be worked with a more distributed (note: cloud) computing paradigm, not needing more and more intensive computer power, but more distributed computing power through use of commodity servers and equipment. This includes savings in not just equipment, but also power and space and maintenance and down time, and latency, and hassles.

  • That does not even take into account the many accounts, from people actually in the business, as to how much easier and quicker it is to program on the Mongo database. We are hearing real case studies, from real businesses we all know talking about much better than 50% time savings.

  • It is also does not take into account THAT THEY ARE DOING MISSION CRITICAL TRANSACTIONAL work on the database, even while version 4.0 is still in pre-beta and won’t be released until this summer on beta. EVEN A LARGE BANK! Imagine the integrity and security issues this creates!!! Yet, they are doing it. Why? Because the hassles of running their new mobile app with customers was so great on the SQL database they had always used that they decided to be an early adopter of a new disruptive technology. That is what disruptive technologies do. They find a place of pain in existing technologies and provide a materially better solution. Getting better and better over time, and both creating new markets, stealing marketshare from old markets, and sometimes even expanding old markets to new use cases and new economics.

  • Further, we have discussed how each new material technology platform paradigm (almost 100%) sees a new company or technology become dominant. This is of course not the data center switch market. But dominant Cisco has been taken to the woodshed by Arista. This is so because Arista has created a better tool, that Cisco cannot replicate, that is CLOUD FOCUSED.

Mongo, the confirmed leader by far in NoSQL has done the same thing. Created a better tool, that AWS, Oracle, and others have at least not yet replicated, that is CLOUD FOCUSED.

  • In addition we have brought up the Mongo is the ONLY SERIOUS DATABASE IN THE WORLD THAT IS BOTH NoSQL and ACID certified. It is unique. NO ONE ELSE DOES THIS. OF COURSE IT IS NOT AS MATURE AS A 50 YEAR OLD TECHNOLOGY - BUT IT WILL GET BETTER OVER TIME. Jeepers the latest iteration is going beta this summer!

I think that is awesome information to know, and questions to ask. I would appreciate information responding to these questions. Because, although I am not in the business, nor in anyway a database expert (although my date tomorrow night may have worked on databases in the past - I will query her), how is it Duma and I came up with this information, and yet someone who is an expert in the field did not even do enough due diligence to recognize these things?

Sorry. Duma, Dreamer, Technologygrowth, and I have done a lot of work digging into the company. We shared it. We appreciate input, or just a few rec’s from time to time. We do not appreciate platitudes and being told how stupid we are by not having thought through what are obvious things.

Correct me if I got any of the above investment critical aspects wrong in any manner. Of the top of my head. Perhaps our database expert can give us some actionable information that is not a platitude! We none experts have worked hard to come up with actionable investment information.

Tinker

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Moreover, the idea that they are competing with relational DB companies is largely fictional since the vast bulk of sales of vendors of relational DBs is to support applications which are inherently dependent on a relational DB.

Errr…what did CSCO use them for??

And, frankly, the almost all of those applications are transactional and thus highly suited to a relational DB and would be greatly harmed by being implemented on anything else.

Errr…”harmed”…what did those many case studies I posted suggest otherwise.

I spent my career in IT and was building and using pre-relational (CODASYL) databases before relational databases were available, and then moved on to Relational & SQL when that came along. I understand what Tamhas is saying, clear as a bell, and his points about relational databases being the foundation of transactional processing is a simple fact. The databases behind every transaction where money passes (or inventory, or personnel records, or a hundred other such things) is relational. Nothing is likely to replace relational for what relational does well because it already does it well, fast, cheap and reliable, and getting to that point was damned hard. Nobody needs to reinvent the relational wheel, that is settled tech.

Yet relational is the wrong tool for countless other things, and that is why new tools are being created and (hopefully) fortunes to be made both selling and using those tools. Just as those tools are the wrong tools for what relational is already doing well. Analogy is always flawed, but auto makers are not going to replace their sheet metal presses with Arcam 3D printers, it would be the wrong tool.

As for Cisco, like every other company making stuff they have to keep track of what they have and what they need, not just finished products but a full bill-of-materials explosion, and they have to turn their sales forecast into a manufacturing plan, and order all the right bits from the right vendors in time for it all to come together, and in the meanwhile make sure everyone gets paid and the accounting all balances, and every last bit of it (and more) is in relational databases. Boring stuff, but you can’t live without it.

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<<<and in the meanwhile make sure everyone gets paid and the accounting all balances, and every last bit of it (and more) is in relational databases. Boring stuff, but you can’t live without it.>>>

Yes, that is why Cisco and this bank, and multiple other examples are using the NoSQL for customer facing applications and transactions. I have no doubt supply chain and accounts payable stuff will remain SQL.

Tamhas, however, told me to prove it. I already did in past posts. Perhaps Tamhas may want to do some research and prove me wrong on this.

Thanks for the insight RHin. That is what we have all been saying (except Tamhas) but you put it much more succinctly using your industry knowledge.

Tinker

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Duma,
Thanks for getting this one on my radar a couple weeks back.

It is on the short list for sure.

I am on the hint for 3 baskets of stocks to keep an eye on

Darn mobile…hit enter too soon. 3 baskets are:

  1. Stocks ready to invest in now - primarily high-growth, preferably small-cap.

  2. Known upcoming IPOs of interest. Be interested in what news sources anyone uses to track upcoming IPOs?

  3. Companies that are private but of interest if they ever do IPO. Examples night be MapR, SpaceX, iPinU (china version of the trade desk). No particular industries but i tend to be tech/science focused. If a clear leader in blochchain emerges. If Memphis Meats (or competitor) can crack code of cell-grown meat, etc…

-Dreamer

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You do understand that a customer facing application is typically not characterized by high volumes of complex transactions and that the boring back office applications which actually run the business are characterized by high volumes of complex transactions?

Modern, customer facing applications typically don’t talk directly to the database at all. They are often written in a different language than the business logic behind them.

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Really insightful thread. Thanks for all the information. Much appreciated.

When I first looked into this one, I think I wrote it off because of the loss it was racking up but the moat looks much better than I initially thought.

I have a couple developer friends who swear by Mongo. Will look into it more.

Best,
Fish

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Or is NoSQL destined to be a passing fancy? I doubt Tamhas thinks this, although his posts on the topic would indicate he thinks not much of it. Which is fine, although it does seem to defy the evidence we have.

I have some expertise with a non-Mongo nosql DBMS system, general experience in multiple others, and I would heed tamhas much more carefully than you have.

What has traditionally been regarded as “NoSQL” can be divided into several different classifications, Mongo falling into the category of document store. But there are 4 leading contenders (Cassandra/DataStax, a column store; Redis a key-value store; Couchbase, a document store; and Riak, which has a key-value and timeseries product but the parent company Basho has recently gone bankrupt). You also have Marklogic, which is a larger, but somewhat niche player.

Further there are nosql-like systems like search engines (Elasticsearch or Lucene/Solr) and distributed transaction logs like Confluent/Kafka. Some cases even call for graph databases like Neo4j or Titan which are more related to efficiently querying edge/vertex sets taking advantage of mathematical symmetries in these structures than any type of storage. They may be compete in some architectures, or may coexist in others.

You should also be aware that there are constant new entrants (Scylla, RocksDB, CockroachDB, et al), some have been acquired already (Foundation to Apple), and may large tech companies have closed source internal databases (Manhattan at Twitter).

That also DBaaS platforms like Microsoft Cosmos, Google Spanner, Amazon DynamoDB, et al. that all have different technical characteristics, beyond what I will go into here, but for one example Spanner is supposed to have “solved” some distributed state synchonization problems involving GPS satellites and atomic clocks.

Finally, you can have many nosql characteristics in traditional relational systems (sharding, replication/failover, document storage and indexing) that might offset the typical operational complexity of many nosql systems. Honestly, on the low end the k-v vendors probably overlap with plain old caches that support sharding (memcached, ehcache).

All the questions about technology selection end up revolving around intended use and operation characteristics. The fundamental problem is tuning for the intrinsic tradeoffs in CAP (consistency, availability, and partition tolerance… generally speaking, databases can “choose two”). Ie you might select differently if you are writing a recommendation, fraud detection, metric collection, messaging, payment processing, or ad tracking systems. No single vendor is going to capture all the nosql tam.

Anyway, hopefully it’s clear that it is a very complicated landscape of competing, well funded companies. db-engines is something many people want to have good placement in (same as they would with Gartner) but it shouldn’t be overly relied on (also same as Gardner). MongoDB was extremely efficient in developer relations and providing an easy on-ramp, but as a result you have things like the 2017 ransomware attack based on the Shodan scans indicating 10s of thousands of unsecured MongoDB clusters because you have so many are being run in situations that are probably smaller scale and, as a result, harder to monetize. I think that manifests in their relatively high db-engines rank versus relatively low margins and revenue on the balance sheet.

Also, you should take the MDB multi-document ACID-compliance claims with a grain of salt. It is a month old announcement of a technical beta.

As a stock, their float is small. Look at the float % short vs short ratio. They have a lockup expiring. They are easy to move and will probably be volatile. The competitive landscape is tough. I would keep an eye on burn rate just as much as revenue growth. On the other side, they’re ubiquitous enough to be part of their own technology stack acronym (“MEAN”) and are undeniably popular. If I had to, I’d be net long, but certainly not 100%. I’m currently neither.

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* In addition we have brought up the Mongo is the ONLY SERIOUS DATABASE IN THE WORLD THAT IS BOTH NoSQL and ACID certified. It is unique. NO ONE ELSE DOES THIS. OF COURSE IT IS NOT AS MATURE AS A 50 YEAR OLD TECHNOLOGY - BUT IT WILL GET BETTER OVER TIME. Jeepers the latest iteration is going beta this summer!

The distinction between ACID compliant and multi-document ACID compliant is actually an important one. Do you know the name of the bank working with MongoDB 4.0 that you are referencing and is there a whitepaper?

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I have some expertise with a non-Mongo nosql DBMS system, general experience in multiple others, and I would heed tamhas much more carefully than you have.

Hey AJM:

Can you remind me exactly what tamhas has warned that we should heed specific to MongoDB?

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The distinction between ACID compliant and multi-document ACID compliant is actually an important one. Do you know the name of the bank working with MongoDB 4.0 that you are referencing and is there a whitepaper?

https://www.computerworlduk.com/data/barclays-reduces-relian…

https://diginomica.com/2016/11/15/barclays-has-plans-to-let-…

Barclays.

Again AJM, lets read what is actually being posted including all the cautionary notes. I have already discussed the fact that 4.0 is not out until this summer and it isn’t known to what degree this new update will effectively the numerous customer requests.

That has been stated numerous times.

Here was their multi-document AICD announcement:

https://www.mongodb.com/blog/post/multi-document-transaction…

https://www.mongodb.com/blog/post/multi-document-transaction…

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/mongodb-announces-multi-docum…

We are discussing the business model and customer base in more detail on the NPI if you are interested:

http://discussion.fool.com/mongodb-business-model-33010238.aspx?..

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Can you remind me exactly what tamhas has warned that we should heed specific to MongoDB?

No.

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What more is there to it than they sell DBaaS via Atlas and traditional on-prem licenses? They’ve been around a decade, I remember when they were 10gen, and they story has roughly been the same: make it very available for free usage (license as AGPL to prevent larger players from offering it as a service) and upsell as usage increased (freemium)

The Barclays links are mostly unrelated to multi-doc ACID x-actions, and I should note it’s also 1.5 years old (https://www.mongodb.com/europe16/schedule/, 10:35 session?), not related to 4.0. Barclays says they use it as a read mirror to mainframes. Not a bad idea, but not particularly related to nosql on the face of it. Barclays has very good people so it’s probably more complicated than this, but it seems to be in the role of a distributed cache. Like Akamai in this situation - mongo is analogous to edge nodes in a cdn. What’s going on in the mainframe is likely something Mongo would not be well suited to replace (the oltp part), and could be considered harder (I can’t speak for anyone, but I think that may be related to the idea tamhas is trying to get across, to answer your earlier question).

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