News about car companies not named Tesla

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Tesla tends to dominate the news from the automotive world but this little tidbit seems important.

TOKYO, June 3 (Reuters) - A safety test scandal at Japanese automakers widened on Monday, with Toyota Motor and Mazda both halting shipments of some vehicles after Japan’s transport ministry found irregularities in applications to certify certain models.

The irregularities were also found in applications from Honda, Suzuki and Yamaha Motor, the ministry said. The automakers were found to have submitted incorrect or manipulated test data when they applied for certification of the vehicles. https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/toyota-other-japan-automakers-under-fire-vehicle-certification-issues-2024-06-03/

Musk may have unpopular firing/rehiring and social media behaviors but fabricating safety certifications to government agencies seems like another level of malpractice. Given the anger directed to Musk, what can we say about the CEOs running the major Japanese auto companies?

I don’t believe Tesla ever got raided. This appears to be a pretty big deal.

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LOL, even when it isn’t about Tesla/Musk - you make it so. There was absolutely no need to even mention either in your post but you apparently felt the need to share your “whataboutism”.

Feel better? :slight_smile:

Hawkwin
Oh, and what Toyota did really sucks. Full Stop.

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Maybe Tesla just hasn’t been caught yet.

VW got a lot of bad press for cheating emissions tests with their diesel engines. Lost in the uproar was the fact that several other companies were caught doing the same thing.

Steve

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Maybe it has to do with the fact that Tesla has had others be crash test dummies of their own choosing

Mike

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The linkage seems pretty obvious to me. There seems to be a huge disparity in the critical scrutiny given to Tesla compared to any other company. Musk fires and rehires a few hundred people and it is of huge interest to this board even though the action will probably have little long-term consequences. In contrast, the Japanese auto companies are having their Diesel-gate moment and it is hardly worth a mention.

Given that short-term stock prices can be driven by both traditional and social media the whys and wherefores of this obsession with all things Musk is relevant to an investment board.

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In other words, you don’t want to talk about Toyota, unless you can relate it back to Musk.

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Toyota is (past) history. Tesla is making history.

The Captain’s
last three cars (1985 - 2019) were Toyotas, some of the best he ever owned.

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Remember, I’m an irrational fanboi so that shouldn’t be surprising. I’m just pointing out that the rest of you guys aren’t much different.

My OP was mostly about Toyota and other Japanese OEMs. The responses are all about Tesla. Seems more like you folks are the ones obsessed.

Looks like the only car company anyone cares about is Tesla.

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I thought Tesla was NOT a car company?

JimA

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I think it’s just that Tesla’s far more interesting than other car companies. I mean, that’s your investing thesis too, right? That Tesla is doing things that no other car company does, and that the things Tesla is doing are incredibly consequential in a way that Toyota improving their HEV fleet is not.

Plus, there’s Musk. He is (or was) the world’s richest man, so he draws outsized attention the way that Warren Buffett got outsized attention despite there being literally tens of thousands of other investment managers in the country. Musk acts in a way that no other large-company CEO acts as well, and his constellation of companies present issues of law and corporate governance in ways that no other large company does. If Mary Barra was out buying Twitter or calling people “pedo” or hosting Ron De Santis on her Twitch stream, people would be talking about her more as well.

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It is not just a car company.

Meanwhile, Toyota, Mazda, and Subaru are committed to developing new internal combustion engines that will approach carbon neutrality by making them compatible with carbon-neutral fuels. The engines appear to be designed for hybrids. I gather that the strategy is to produce hybrids that can use e-fuels, biofuels, or hydrogen, all of which are unfortunately currently much more expensive than gasoline. Subaru, Toyota and Mazda commit to developing new engines for electrification and carbon-neutral fuels | Automotive Powertrain Technology International

BYD in contrast will soon have BEVs capable of 400+ mile range, 10 minute recharge times, at prices comparable to or lower than these hybrids.

Which is likely to be the more successful strategy?

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Which is unfortunate. I don’t see how that path is going to be profitable for any of them. I think BMW is going this route too. At least Honda sees the BEV light.

And we keep hearing about this breakthrough. I hope it eventually happens, but it makes me wonder. Do I delay buying the EV I want until this battery break-through? Do I lease instead and lock-in a resell value just in case? Do I buy anyway thinking this is still YEARS away from reality? Tough call.

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I don’t think it is a tough call, because:

  • even when/if it arrives, it will be in 1-2 years at the earliest
  • it will be more expensive, in more expensive models for at least a few years
  • there is a possibility it will have at least minor issues at first
  • there will likely be very few charging locations that can handle the higher charging speeds for several years after the cars start arriving, so you’ll be limited in where you can drive long distances and be able to super fast charge – so what’s the point for the next (maybe) 5 years anyway.

If you need a new EV now, get one that is available now and switch later

Mike

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In all low and mid market areas, BYD will slaughter the European auto manufacturers EVEN if they only sold ICE/hybrid vehicles. For the same reason Japanese, and later other Asian, manufacturers of audio equipment slaughtered European ones in the 70s/80s. Because they can provide an equivalent or better product for about half the price. Heck, BYD (and similar companies) may even slaughter the Japanese automakers if they aren’t careful. In high market areas, maybe not, or maybe not yet. And the US automakers have pretty much removed themselves from those markets before they could get slaughtered.

The fact is that BYD can sell decent vehicles, even pretty good vehicles, at a price substantially lower than an European automaker can sell. And even accounting for Eurocentricity, there’s no way a consumer in Italy, Spain, Romania, Netherlands, etc will say “I’d rather buy a VW for €40,000 than a BYD for €27,000 because it’s made in Europe”. Maybe Germans will say that at first, but even Germans at the margin will slowly defect to BYD instead of VW to enjoy the lower prices.

In technology (which now includes vehicles for the most part), there are ALWAYS new advances on the horizon. Always.

I think it depends on how you approach vehicles. If you like driving a new-ish vehicle anyway, and buy new every 5 years or so, then maybe lease for now. But beware, it is very likely that you will lease for 3 years (the typical lease period), and then at the end of the 3 years, the new tech isn’t quite here, and you will need to lease again. I call that the “lease trap”, and you end up in a new car all the time with ever increasing monthly payments. Or you could buy a new one now, and suffer through the normal early depreciation, AND suffer through the additional presumable deprecation when the new tech comes out. That’s why most people say the “sweet spot” is to buy about 2 year old used after most of the initial depreciation has been wrung out of the vehicle. In 2021, I did NOT do that because new cars (EVs) at the time were only a tiny bit more expensive than 2-year-old used cars (I checked all over for weeks and the price difference between new and 2-year-old used was never more than $5k which astounded me on a ~$55k vehicle). So I bought new instead.

The other alternative is to just keep thinking about the new tech that is coming and buy nothing. But that would go on forever, of course. :rofl:

Right now, the best deal BY FAR is a 2-year-old used model Y with low mileage. And if you really want ultrasonic sensors (dropped in late 2021), you could look for a mid-2021 (3-year old) model Y for an even lower price, but try to find a lower mileage one if possible. The same applies to the model 3 if you want a sports sedan instead of a crossover.

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Buy a used EV. EV’s depreciate rapidly because everyone wants the next, better model so they go for a substantial discount over new. Look at the price of lightly used Tesla’s for example.

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We typically buy new, and then hold for 8-10 years. I figure if we hold for that long buying a 2-year-old car is then a bad idea. For one, I have sacrificed the 2 best years of the car, and now have the 2 worst years from a maintenance standpoint, but gained nearly nothing financially in the end.

As per buying a 2 year old EV, this is what I am looking at, and only 2 of them would a used purchase even be possible:

  1. Mach-E
  2. Lyric
  3. Prologue
  4. ZDX
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I bought an Apple ][+. A couple years later an Apple ][e. Then a couple years later a MacSE. Then a couple years later…

Early in a tech wave things are going to change fast. I could have waited, I suppose, for the candy colored Macs to come out, or maybe a Quadra box, but I would have missed 10 years of learning, goofing around, playing, and useful use of the new technology.

I could have stuck with a typewriter, I suppose, but what fun is that?

Everybody’s situation is different. If you can afford it, buy something new, but buy with the knowledge that it’s going to lose value (much) more quickly than you’re used to. If you can’t and still want to play, buy something used. Or don’t. At my age I don’t have another 10 years to wait, so I bought something new, and I have no regrets. Yes, the price drops are going to give me whiplash someday, but then also someday I’ll be too old, blind, and feeble to drive anyway, so what good would the extra money do me?

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  • Apple was incorporated as Apple Computer, Inc.
  • Tesla was incorporated as Tesla Motors, Inc.
  • Apple dropped the ‘Computer’
  • Tesla dropped the ‘Motors’

The Captain

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Stupid trivia fact, but Tesla Motors was the correct term for them to use originally, as they use electric MOTORS. Internal combustion ENGINES are in fact engines, not motors. So it should be General Engines, not General Motors. And my love of motorsports should actually be engine sports, with the exception of Formula E which is in fact a motorsport.

Now… let’s talk about why the Dark Side of the Moon really should be the Far Side of the Moon and how Roger Waters misled millions of us…

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I’m not sure how you figure that exactly. In my experience, it isn’t true. You buy a 2 year old car for $15-20k less than a new one. You get the tail end “worst 2 years” in year 10-12 of the vehicles life. I’ve done that a number of times (doing it right now with our 2014 Honda Odyssey) and the maintenance costs in the last 2 years never reach anywhere near $15-20k. None of the used cars I’ve purchased in the last 40 years have ever required maintenance that reached anywhere close to the amount of initial depreciation I avoided by buying used.

Used Mach-es can be found for dirt cheap nowadays. Like under $25k for a 2021 and under $28k for a 2022. A used Lyric would be closer to $45k, maybe $40k if you search harder.

Why wouldn’t you look at VW, Audi, Tesla, etc? They have far more experience in EV and many more options available, and frankly are usually better vehicles to boot.

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