Nursing Homes Suing Friends/Family of Patients

Another excellent article on health care thievery from Kaiser News.

Nursing Homes Are Suing the Friends and Family of Residents to Collect Debts
https://khn.org/news/article/diagnosis-debt-nursing-home-law…

Of course, you’re not responsible for someone else’s debt unless you cosigned for it.

What the nursing home industry appears to be doing is suing a lot of folks on flimsy evidence (or none at all) that they’ve somehow hidden a patient’s assets, and they hope they’ll settle out of court.

Or maybe you’ll go to trial in a state with elected judges who get large campaign contributions from the nursing home industry?

Best strategy is to avoid nursing homes.

intercst

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In many cases, that’s just not possible. One example is an elderly married couple (e.g. both over age 80) where one suffers dementia and the other isn’t physically capable of caring for them at home.

My heart (and sincere admiration) goes to alstroemeria who has described her devoted care at home of her mentally declining husband on the Taking Care of Parents Board. The care requires a lot of physical strength which many elderly people wouldn’t be able to accomplish.

Many people have no choice but to place a declining loved one into a nursing home.

You have said in the past that you would prefer assisted suicide rather than enter a nursing home. However, many people are religiously against suicide. In any case, dementia patients are in a bind. Many are physically healthy and do not qualify for the assisted suicide rule which requires a terminal illness. Many who are physically ill require skilled nursing care.

I appreciate your bringing the problems of the nursing home industry to our attention. That helps us recognize them and possibly plan how to avoid them.

But advising people to avoid nursing homes isn’t realistic in many cases.

Wendy

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But advising people to avoid nursing homes isn’t realistic in many cases

What about trying to find a “live in” who receives room, board, a decent salary, and benefits?

Anyone with experience in trying such?

I’ve met some very decent nurses from the Philippians who might be interested in such during recent hospital stays. Good people, hard working, looking for a better life.

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<<But advising people to avoid nursing homes isn’t realistic in many cases>>

What about trying to find a “live in” who receives room, board, a decent salary, and benefits?

Anyone with experience in trying such?

I’ve met some very decent nurses from the Philippians who might be interested in such during recent hospital stays. Good people, hard working, looking for a better life.

I foresee a major push back on immigrants cutting into nursing home margins and Executive Compensation.

The nursing home industry feels it has an inalienable right to your life savings – and the savings of your friends and family.

intercst

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The alternative to nursing homes is to return to a far more powerful version of communal life.

One way to do that is to form friendships so strong that people shelter and look after one another. My mother took in a friend from church who had lost everything in a horrible automobile accident with an unisured drunk driver, crippling her back. They lived together for twenty years, and the friend looked after Mom onto her dying day. Mom had no interest in life extension once her body started collapsing on itself, and so when she could no longer manage the stairs she stopped eating, taking just one glass of wine a day. She even delayed that until Biden was safely inagugurated, and we hired an nice young woman to come each day to help her bathe. She died happy in her own home surrounded by memories and love. Her friend is now 80, still hale, and my brother and I are looking after looking after her.

Another way, and what I am suggesting to Mom’s friend (actually mine first from long ago in church choir and vestry) is that she move nearby to me in Mexico where I can look after her and costs of everything are much much lower. She is coming down to visit with me, i hope, in October.

david fb

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I’ve met some very decent nurses from the Philippians who might be interested in such during recent hospital stays. Good people, hard working, looking for a better life.

My Diplomat daughter had a young lady from the Philippians as a nanny when her girls were little. Our Foreign Affairs bosses arranged special immigration status for them. She recommended them to her sister and that is all she would hire for the next five years while the boys were growing. They really were hard workers with pleasant attitude.

When the banker needed one in West Vancouver she found out where all the nannies hung out with strollers and little ones, wrote up a flier offering a hiring reward and passed them around. She had a wonderful late 30s lady until the bank moved her to San Francisco. The middle little guy cried when he found out she couldn’t go with them.

Tim

Best strategy is to avoid nursing homes.


70% of us will be in a nursing home, the average stay is 2.7 years.

intercst:"The nursing home industry feels it has an inalienable right to your life savings "

And why not? If you live in a nursing home, you should be paying the bills. Even if it means you sell your house and use the proceeds to pay the bills.

Now, unless you sign a document indicating your are ‘responsible’ for financial obligations, other than a spouse, you’re off the hook …they can’t come after sons, daughters, etc.

Likely, spouse yes…


My grandfather at age 80 needed to be placed in an Alzheimer’s Home. He was physically OK but mentally he wandered…and tried to physically wander…and his wife, age 82, couldn’t manage him 24/7. They lived in an apartment with not all that much. Up to 80, he worked part time as a ticket taker in a nearly movie theater, which kept him going. He had to move to 3 different places because he was a ‘problem’ to handle. Lasted about 2 years total in the homes. Grandma lasted about the same on her own. 82.

So far so good, but hope I don’t wind up in one.

My Uncle moved into a ‘community facility’ that had 3 levels of living at age 90. His wife had died 7 years earlier. sold his house (lived there 65 years) in neighborhood that had deteriorated. Had to buy in. Basic care - apartment and 2 meals a day. Had small kitchenette, lots of activities, shuttles to docs, shopping, etc. Moved there at age 90. At 94, he went into the nursing home unit for last 4 months then passed.


Now, I’m sure some families try to shield ‘assets’ of loved ones who wind up in nursing homes. Move then earlier enough so not caught in the few years before nursing home care.


My mom spent the last 3 weeks of her life - in hospital for a week…then care unit for ‘end of life’ for 2 more weeks. Second broken hip, followed by heart attack and stroke did her in at 82.


So far so good, at age 76, but you never know… a wheel from a 747 could land on you tomorrow or a meteorite come through your roof at night. Or you could just slowly go downhill to age 90 or 95.

If I need that level of care, I’ll likely wind up in a nursing home.

I’ve seen one or two really elderly people, one totally bedridden, stay at home with 24 hour assistance - and getting and keeping anyone is difficult to say the least. Live in help. If you only need part time, that probably is doable but if you need assistance from the time you get up till you go to bed…well…that’s real tough if you stay at home, and multi-generational homes only work if you had lots of kids who have kids, etc, and have time to help.

t.

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"The nursing home industry feels it has an inalienable right to your life savings – and the savings of your friends and family.

intercst"

from my personal experience with elderly parents ( now deceased ), man, do you speak the truth !

My Dad went about 15 years before my Mom. When my Mom started slipping, all of us did everything
we could do to keep her in her house, and not in a nursing home. Finally got to the point
where we all couldn’t give her 24 hour care, so she had to go in a nursing home. The nursing home
went thru her life savings in less than a year, which coincides with when she died ( not saying
they had anything to do with her death, it just worked out that way ). After observing life
in a nursing home, like you I will do everything in my power to not end up in one.

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The only good way off this mortal coil is to simply fall over dead. Not to awake the next morning. Other wise odds are any of us will end up in a home.

My mom was an alzheimer’s patient in a nursing home for 13 years.

The nursing home burned through her life savings in 8-9 years. Michigan law says they can’t take your home, but mom’s home had been in Arizona, so was sold when she was moved back to Michigan.

Once you are wiped out financially, in Michigan, you qualify for Medicaid.

I could show how much mom had had in 96, and had all the documentation of how the nursing home had burned through it for all the years that the state “looks back” at cash flow, so she was enrolled in Medicaid with no problem.

My nightmare was if the (L&Ses) in Lansing decide to “reform” Medicaid, so that coverage is denied until the entire family is broken financially, to help pay for another tax cut for the “JCs”, and/or so that the “JCs” that own the nursing homes can continue to receive full list price for all the services, rather than being “burdened” by settling for the much lower amount Medicaid pays.

Fortunately, the nightmare was not realized.

Steve

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My nightmare was if the (L&Ses) in Lansing decide to “reform” Medicaid, so that coverage is denied until the entire family is broken financially, to help pay for another tax cut for the “JCs”, and/or so that the “JCs” that own the nursing homes can continue to receive full list price for all the services, rather than being “burdened” by settling for the much lower amount Medicaid pays.

That’s not a crazy concern. Lots of states have “Filial Responsibility” laws where children have the financial responsibility to care for their parents. Think twice if you reside in one.

https://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/health/NOA/30stat…

States with filial responsibility laws are: Alaska, Arkansas,
California, Connecticut, Delaware, Georgia, Idaho, Indiana, Iowa,
Kentucky, Louisiana, Maryland, Massachusetts, Mississippi, Montana,
Nevada, New Hampshire, New Jersey, North Carolina, North Dakota,
Ohio, Oregon, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, South Dakota,
Tennessee, Utah, Vermont, Virginia, and West Virginia.

intercst

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<Lots of states have “Filial Responsibility” laws where children have the financial responsibility to care for their parents. Think twice if you reside in one.>

I don’t know the answer to this and I don’t have a dog in this fight, but I wonder whether an irrevocable trust would escape this net?

For example, Mom could gift money to an irrevocable trust whose trustee was one of her kids. The trust is not owned by the trustee. It’s a separate entity with its own Trust Identification number.
Wendy

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What about trying to find a “live in” who receives room, board, a decent salary, and benefits?

Anyone with experience in trying such?

I’ve met some very decent nurses from the Philippians who might be interested in such during recent hospital stays. Good people, hard working, looking for a better life.

IMO there is a need for Elder Au Pair/Nanny legal classification to fill this role. Maybe a long term position with a pathway to citizenship. If I had been able to get someone to help with my parents, I would have helped them fund a care business after they passed. There are private homes where they take in elders for assisted living. Win win.

IP,
thinking it’s a real shame that the Taking Care of Parents board got taken down as not critical, given how many of us face that dilemma or have suggestions/shoulders to lean on having been through it

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thinking it’s a real shame that the Taking Care of Parents board got taken down as not critical,

Taking Care of Parents is alive and well. It did not get shut down in the recent purge. It is expanded a bit to include taking care of spouses and even disabled children, as many of the issues are quite similar.

–Peter

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I don’t know the answer to this and I don’t have a dog in this fight, but I wonder whether an irrevocable trust would escape this net?

Bro was on disability and on Mass Health when Dad died. He inherited a small sum of money that we were able to put into a special trust, allowing him to draw the max amount allowed without losing Mass Health. He was dying of cancer at the time, and his small inheritance could have kicked him out of Mass health, which would have been devastating. They would come after what was left after he died, to pay his bills, or such was my understanding. Another brother took care of all of that for him.

There have been horror stories about the filial laws going after children who had been given up for adoption or mistreated and put in foster care. PA is one of the toughest with the law.

IP