OT: Israel's military is immoral and out of control

Israeli Army Sources: Gaza Aid Workers Killed Because ‘IDF Officers on the Ground Do What They Want’

The IDF and defense ministry claimed that the aid workers’ killing resulted from poor coordination. Israeli army sources later refuted their claims, saying the incident has ‘no connection to coordination’ and was caused by the fact that ‘every commander sets the rules for himself’



  • Poland said it will investigate the killing of a Polish national, one of the seven World Central Kitchen aid workers killed by an Israeli drone strike in Deir al-Balah Sunday night on suspicion of murder. Polish Prime Minister Donald Tusk said: “Prime Minister Netanyahu, Mr. Ambassador Livne, the vast majority of Poles showed full solidarity with Israel after the Hamas attack. Today you are putting this solidarity to a really hard test,” adding that “the tragic attack on volunteers and your reaction arouse understandable anger.”

  • World Central Kitchen founder chef Jose Andres wrote in the New York Times: “We know Israelis. Israelis, in their heart of hearts, know that food is not a weapon of war. Israel is better than the way this war is being waged. It is better than blocking food and medicine to civilians.”

  • U.S. President Biden said he is “outraged and heartbroken” by the deaths of seven humanitarian workers from World Central Kitchen, and stressed that “he will make clear to Israel that humanitarian aid workers must be protected.” He also reiterated the U.S. demand that Israel conduct a “thorough investigation” of the incident, and that its findings must be made public. National Security Council Spokesperson Kirby said Washington has no plans to conduct its own independent investigation on the matter.

  • Belgian Foreign Minister Hadja Lahbib said the UN Security Council’s resolution calling for a cease-fire in Gaza “has no real consequences, and it’s a question mark about our leverage.” She also added that her country would consider recognizing Palestine as a sovereign state “when the moment comes.”

  • The Hamas-controlled Health Ministry in Gaza said at least 32,975 Palestinians have been killed and 75,577 were wounded since the start of the war.


Re: Coordination?

How about wanton killers who shoot at anything that moves?

Grossly out of control.

Correct - that is exactly what IDF does.


How about we immediately halt all arms shipments to Israel. Any orders already approved can go to Ukraine instead.


Two relevant questions:

1- the media keeps nattering on about how the vehicles were clearly marked as belonging to an NGO. The vehicles were en route in late evening, around 11pm-midnight. Are those NGO markings visible in the dark?

2-the three vehicles were attacked separately, as they were scattered along a 1.5 mile stretch of highway. Was there any other traffic on that road at that time, or were these the only three vehicles in sight? I have not seen an answer to that one anywhere.

Additionally, the news reported there have been several trucks of relief supplies the Israelis attacked. The difference was the drivers of those other vehicles were locals, not white Europeans.



And Hamas is moral?

Listen until you point out how some Arab government in the area will allow Israel peace it makes no sense to call this war off.

The only rational Arab government is Jordan a US/Israeli satellite.

If you can not promise Israel peace why expect Israel to stop fighting? Hamas wants this war. Since 2007 Israel has been attacked nonstop.

You can worry about it but you do not care about Yemen, Syria, Somalia, or Sudan. Why not?

Let me know if any of you care more about any of these wars than what is going on with Gaza. I think none of us care at all. Put away the tears. Give Israel peace or expect war.

The UN announced on 2 June 2022 that the nationwide truce had been further extended by two months. According to the UN, over 150,000 people have been killed in Yemen, as well as estimates of more than 227,000 dead as a result of an ongoing famine and lack of healthcare facilities due to the war.

Estimates of the total number of deaths in the Syrian Civil War, by various war monitors, range between 580,000 as of May 2021, and approximately 617,910 as of March 2024 .

Since the 1980s Somalia has been in constant civil war. The war has been marked by massacres by rival warlords, Al Shabaab terrorists, and Somali government forces. Between 350,000 and 1 million people have died since 1991. 2.6 million Somalis are internally displaced. 3.5 million Somalis, including 1.5 million children, face starvation.

As of 21 January 2024, at least 13,000–15,000 people had been killed and 33,000 others were injured. As of 21 March, over 6.5 million were internally displaced and more than two million others had fled the country as refugees, and many civilians in Darfur have been reported dead as part of the 2023 Masalit massacres.

There have been between 280,771-315,190 Iraqi civilians killed by direct violence since the U.S. invasion.

ISIS no one publishes how many dead.

The U.S. post-9/11 wars in Iraq, Afghanistan, Yemen, Syria, and Pakistan have taken a tremendous human toll on those countries. As of September 2021, an estimated 432,093 civilians in these countries have died violent deaths as a result of the wars.

War is hell. Always has been. For security, Israel needs to destroy Hamas. Both Hamas and Israel knew that getting Hamas out of Gaza would be difficult because they are among so many civilians.

Still this incident goes too far. Israel must do better.


War is war and hell is hell. And of the two, war is worse.

Leap is right - Israel is trying to survive and they have that right. But so is pauleckler - Israel must do better. These are not mutually exclusive.


I’ve got to disagree with that premise. Israel does not need to destroy Hamas. They need to make Hamas not a significant threat.

If we don’t push back on this idea that Israel needs to destroy Hamas, there will be no end to this war and the human suffering it is causing.



The situation that lead to the rise of Hamas, and the PLO, and other organizations, is the cause of the problem. The IDF can kill tens of thousands of Pals, and completely exterminate Hamas, and they will only add to the Pal’s resentment. Another organization will grow from the same poisoned well, and Israel will have the same problem.



By “the situation,” do you mean the existence of Israel as a country? Or the specific policies of Israel towards the Palestinians?

Not necessarily the same problem. There is a very good chance that you’re right, and that there will always be people and groups that want to destroy Israel as a country. But those people or groups may not have the same organizational experience and capabilities that Hamas specifically has demonstrated.

The U.S. went to war against Al Qaeda - and while such a conflict did not (and could not) ever end anti-Western sentiment among certain deeply Islamic fundamentalist populations, it did all-but-completely degrade the actual threat posed by that specific group. The AQ brand still exists, and there are offshoots - but AQ proper (the specific group organized by and formerly led by OBL) hasn’t committed a terror attack on U.S. soil since 9/11, or in Europe since 2005.


The PLO is not a problem for Israel. Not much of one. The PLO is not attacking Israel. I wish the West Bank settlers had better manners and followed the law.

Hamas has been at war with Israel since 2007. This war is not new. The Israelis have had patience with Hamas.

The Palestinians do not have that much resentment very often. There are wars between the Muslims that are worse. The Israelis and Palestinians share a lot in common culturally.

The Palestinians in the West Bank want to be much more expressive and negotiate more. That is not violent for the most part.

We have millions of Americans with no resentment who are happy to see wars we fight. Kind of ironic to see an American assume war is started by resentment.

That is my point with Hamas. The US didn’t destroy al-Qaeda, they degraded its ability to be a threat. Granted, the AQ threat to the US is significantly lessened by geographic distance, something the Israel does not have with Hamas.

But that geographic proximity means its also somewhat easier for Israel to monitor Hamas activity and take multiple smaller actions to lessen or neutralize specific threats, including targeted attacks on Hamas leadership.

The current policy of uprooting an entire population is, IMHO, bound to create as many people with the desire to destroy Israel as it removes. Maybe more.

As has already been said but is worth repeating, Israel needs to do better.



Regardless of emotions it is probably not true.

Close to half the Hamas fighters are dead. You’d be right that not every Hamas fighter needs to perish but at some point there will be a collapse that has to happen.

There is fighting until Hamas collapses.


I think that prior to October 7, many would have agreed that such efforts would be sufficient. After October 7, I think few Israelis would agree that even a more aggressive approach to “mowing the grass” is a viable path to containing the threat posed by Hamas.

That’s certainly possible, but the goal is to remove the people with the capacity to commit these kinds of attacks on Israel, rather than focus on who has the desire to do it. There have always been large numbers of people who want to destroy Israel and/or remove all the Jews from the region, and possibly always will be. The key security objective for Israel is to ensure that no group or organization of such people matures to the point where they have the capability of posing serious security threats like 10/7 ever again. That will not be easy, given the willingness of state actors (like Iran) to nurture those groups in order to further their own geopolitical goals.


The same people have been more successful removing the Christians and other minorities.

Biden needs to call Hamas. I get Hamas is never going to pick up the phone.

Tell Hamas to be nice to people. Especially Christians. Good luck.

Like the US is going to lose proxy wars to Russia because the American press is screwing around with your minds for soap sales.

President Biden told Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu that future U.S. support “will be determined” by how Israel treats civilians in Gaza.

Thursday, April 4, 2024 2:28 PM ET
During a lengthy and evidently tense call with Mr. Netanyahu, Mr. Biden expressed his frustration over the killing of seven aid workers by Israeli military forces and what he sees as the broader disregard for the suffering of innocents in Gaza.

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Let’s not forget that a portion of the success of the 10/7 attack was a failure of Israel to take action on the intelligence they had obtained. So there were no efforts to “mow the grass” as you put it. The information Israel had about a potential attack was dismissed as aspirational, at least according to NYT reporting.

I don’t think its fair to say that “mowing the grass” is insufficient when you fail to actually mow the grass.

But if you can limit the number of people with the desire, you reduce the number of people interested in developing the capacity.

The current attempts at removing the people with capacity are almost certainly creating more people with desire. Some of those people with desire are going to develop capacity. Those without desire have little interest in developing capacity. Therefore a failure to limit desire is a failure to limit capacity.