OT - Upstart (UPST)

Ben,

I’m not Chompin, but I do have a couple thoughts as to why the market has been so negative. I’d argue that the growth story being derailed in the short term is secondary to the fact that the company was forced to use its balance sheet to hold some of the bread and butter personal loans. On the CC management referenced that 75% of the $345M in incremental loans on the balance sheet were of the R&D variety (gotta provide a curve in new markets before others pony up cash), but that means $86M was of the traditional personal loan variety. The number on its own is troubling, but more so is the implication that if we see a broader dislocation Upstart could easily be stuck with more loans than it can handle. Management’s discussion about how previous vintages had returns above expectations and most recent vintages below expectations left much to be desired. What should customers expect going forward?

The “Great Recession” nailed pretty much everyone depending on securitization/outside funding, but the case of First Marblehead seems pretty pertinent. It was effectively the Upstart model, but for student loans, and without the terms AI/ML involved. Below is their brief platform description:

“Monogram platform is a fully outsourced, end-to-end private student loan solution for lender clients. The platform is designed to be flexible and helps our lender partners target risk profiles that align with their portfolio objectives. Product offerings include development of a customized private-label program, including a proprietary scorecard, school sales and marketing support, active portfolio management, and loan loss protection.”

Sound familiar?

Things went great until its loan guarantor went bankrupt, repayment rates stopped following pre-recession curves, and partners started questioning how much value the company provided. Stock fell off a cliff and never recovered, eventually going private for $65M.

Returning to UPST, a skeptic might well argue that the significant guidance drop in expected loans/revenues over the rest of the year might not just be because of tightening borrower requirements and the marginal effects of higher rates, but also an internal decision due to concerns about the market’s willingness to fund marginal loans.

I work in finance and have seen the many shortcomings of FICO. UPST may well offer a better solution, and the upside if successful is enormous. But I also realize that even if their solution is better than FICO, if it is not good enough to maintain partners in a recession there is substantial BK risk.

I had no interest in the stock at >$200, but I agree the risk/return at current levels is very reasonable. 5-10x upside very possible if they weather a down market cycle for their customers (potentially more if they succeed in other verticals). And 0 as far as they’ll drop!

A more cautious approach would be to wait and see how their recent and upcoming vintages perform. Of course, if the data looks good, one might be buying in 100%-200% higher.

I know you don’t need any help position sizing, but wish some of the folks on Saul’s board would realize that this type of company should never be purchased with funds you aren’t willing to lose entirely, and permanently.

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Stock is down another 21% today. I accumulated some more, averaging down.

Upstart Stock is up 15% today and has gone up from $25 → $45 in last few days.
Meaningless squiggle in a 10 year timeframe just as the violent downward move from $80 → $25 was.

Mr. Market is confused.

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As we possibly pass by the Tesla, SAAS, crypto (pretty sure crypto’s gunna get at least one more euphoric moment) parabolics it is honestly a pretty crappy letdown that the only stock we can be hammered with on the Berkshire board is a 90% down jostling around…a stock that no one can predict with an underlying business that surely has a lifespan equal to a spider.

Alas, won’t be long till another set of stocks or assets is parabolicing…and they’ll be the center of focus for several on the Berkshire board. The hammer will surely come, and we’ll get to watch yet again rise and fall.

it is honestly a pretty crappy letdown that the only stock we can be hammered with on the Berkshire board is a 90% down jostling around…a stock that no one can predict with an underlying business that surely has a lifespan equal to a spider.

Chompin’s scorn for UPST is duly noted. I’m betting there’s more to the business than he believes, though of course I’m not betting the farm on the stock, nor am I pounding the table advocating anyone else buy.

Closest thing I could offer as a table pounder at the moment is MNRA. It’s back down at the level I’ve made my purchases with astoundingly low PE and impressive cash on the balance sheet from their bloated earnings over the last year. Covid is climbing fast again in the US and worldwide, so I expect the booster business to do well for them in the second half of the year, and likely will have good legs next year too.

The bounce-back of UPST off the post-earnings report crash has been impressive, and the stock is gaining today while most the market is getting hammered. There’s some positive news out today: Sharonview Credit Union has become a partner offering Upstart personal loans. They’re a sizable operation, mainly in the Carolinas, but not like a national bank or anything so I don’t see why the stock would get a big pop off of the news.

I guess maybe today’s price action is influenced by short sellers covering and taking some profits. The stock lot I bought post-earnings is now up 65% and my overall position is back to break even. Volatility! I’ve considered lightening back up some on the position, but the powerful strength it’s showing today in a vicious down market makes me think the rally has legs.

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Ben…as I’ve stated many times, I make may say then sorta buy almost all things that seem to have probability on their side in small amounts along the way. Although my portfolio is dominated by a few things…

Almost, oh I cam so-so-so close, to buying some UPST Monday but bougt a tad of Teva.

I meant “make my say” or maybe “have my say” to clarify. Can’t spell!

Almost, oh I cam so-so-so close, to buying some UPST Monday

That’s surprising to me given the amount of hatred you’ve expressed for the business. :slight_smile:

I’ve found out there’s other news today that probably had a bigger role in the stock price strength than the Sharonview partner add: The CEO stated, among other things, that they were surprised by the intense negative reaction to their taking a chunk of loans onto their balance sheet to provide liquidity while the financial markets were moving fast and partners weren’t buying loans. They’ve since then decided to avoid doing that in the future and limit loans held on the balance sheet strictly to R&D loans to establish performance curves for new products. That will mean that loan volume will take a hit in similar circumstances as occurred recently, but Upstart will avoid taking on the credit risk.

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Closest thing I could offer as a table pounder at the moment is MNRA

I believe MRNA stock will do well just basis on Covid. Synthetic RNA is ground breaking.

Do you have any view on what is likely to be the next success story in the pipeline ?

https://www.modernatx.com/research/product-pipeline?

Do you have any view on what is likely to be the next success story in the pipeline ?

https://www.modernatx.com/research/product-pipeline ?

I can’t offer anything much beyond what you can see at the site above. Aside from various Covid vaccines, furthest along are their flu vaccine, RSV vaccine and CMV vaccine, with flu in prep for Phase 3 trials, and the other two already in Phase 3. Each of these should have solid commercial potential.

Their flu shot so far has showed somewhat better efficacy against some kinds of flu, but somewhat higher side-effects. Haven’t read much about the others. Moderna hopes to eventually offer a ‘pan-respiratory’ vaccine against Covid, flu, RSV and endemic coronaviruses responsible for a sizable proportion of colds.

Not as far down the pipeline, a vaccine for EBV to prevent mononucleosis should be profitable if brought to market. I had Mono in my twenties and it messed me up for a month.

HIV vaccines obviously could be huge, though a lot of companies have been trying to develop those for decades, so I don’t count on success.

Some of cancer vaccines and therapeutics obviously could be huge, but who knows odds of success.

They do have a lot of stuff going on, and it seems Covid will be a problem for the foreseeable future, which is ‘good’ for their profit potential, as they have arguably the best vaccine, and they hope to offer a bi-valent Omicron/original Covid vaccine by fall which should be much more effective against the Omicron derived variants dominating around the world now.

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