ROKU Competitors’ Strategies

It has previously been discussed on this board if ROKU really has a moat. Will be very interesting to see the long term impact on ROKU of competitors such as Comcast and others who are willing to go to market with more of a razors and blades strategy with their hardware and not just the one day hit the ROKU’s stock took today. If I have to postulate, it makes sense to give away the hardware to facilitate more viewer eyeballs for one’s customer$, the advertisers. Although both viewers and advertisers are the customer in this case. Guessing in this the same reason that in my opinion, we’re likely to see lower and lower monthly fees for streaming content to get more eyeballs viewing content that is subsidized by advertising.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/09/18/this-triple-tax-advantaged-a…

sjo

Sorry, wrong link. Here’s the correct link.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/09/18/roku-stock-drops-on-comcast-…

sjo

If I have to postulate, it makes sense to give away the hardware to facilitate more viewer eyeballs for one’s customer$, the advertisers.

This is also something talked about by Ben Thompson, who runs Stratechery. He notes that Apple might be best served giving away iPhones in exchange for getting/keeping those eyeballs around, and that they seem to realize this by lowering the price of their iPhones across the board. Anyway, not an Apple plug, just another case where the idea you mentioned could turn into a trend.

https://stratechery.com/2019/the-iphone-and-apples-services-…

And of course Jeff Green, CEO of The Trade Desk, has said the same thing about Netflix for years. That they would eventually have to give away their product for free, just to keep the eyeballs around and rely on the ad revenue instead.

I’ll certainly be watching to see how all this plays out.

Brandon

How many streaming devices are currently out there?

And Roku still enjoys a very dominant share of the market. And now Comcast is going to blow them away? Comcast best hope is to get a small part of a small part of the market.

One streaming box is free. Any additional ones are $5/mo. How many do people typically have? We have 4 (well 1 FireTV remains), soon to be 5. $20/month is $240 a year. And 2 of our TVs will be RokuTVs(1 installed, the other coming Christmas). No thanks I don’t need that giant Flex box cluttering things up here.

I mean always watch for competition but this thing from Comcast is… well you provide the adjective.

Darth

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This is the very reason my conviction lies squarely in the TTD camp rather than in that of ROKU. One can argue that if your content truly is king aka DIS, especially with the resent acquisition of the Fox movie portfolio, you can have it both ways. Why does DIS need ROKU? DIS could easily mail their viewers their version of an Amazon Fire Stick or similar to what Comcast did today (see previous post for link to article) for free and most likely will. Then the value proposition to your other customers, the advertisers, becomes who has the best AI-based programmatic advertising platform, aka TTD. Go Jeff Green and co!

sjo

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Why does DIS need ROKU? DIS could easily mail their viewers their version of an Amazon Fire Stick or similar to what Comcast did today (see previous post for link to article) for free and most likely will.

So Disney+ is going to put out a device that allows you to access to Netflix, along with a variety of competing streaming services?

The devices are, again, only a part of the story. Roku is about to enter Europe, UK actually, where every single HiSense TV sold will have the Roku OS already installed. No need for a Facebook, Amazon, or any other brand of stick or device.

The devices are only sold to people with inferior operating systems on their TV. Right now 1 in 3 smart TVs sold in USA have a Roku OS. Roku is now focusing on international. Roku and Disney+ do not compete.

Just as Roku is competing with various alternative operating systems, TradeDesk has alternates that Disney+ and any other streaming provider can use. So nothing is risk free in this world.

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Big fan of TTD here. Just in this space in particular where greater than 80% of programmatic OTT ads are in US and greater than 80% of that delivered on Roku. TTD is 1 of 40 DSPs feeding that beast. Although admittedly they are probably the biggest one of the 40.

Disney Plus, at least for now, won’t be on Amazon FireTV. Amazon is known for friction. Maybe it will come to Amazon, maybe a deal will be struck even before the rapidly approaching release date. Vudu is another example. I have a lot of digital content accumulated on Vudu (owned by WalMart) a lot of which was before I had a FireTV. But Amazon blocked out Vudu. I buy a ROKU, poof there it all is. Maybe Amazon has it now, but they didn’t last I checked.

Say you’re coming out with a new streaming service. Say You can only put it on one streaming platform.

Who’s it going to be and why?

Now say you can be on all the streaming platforms you want but you must exclude one. Who’s it going to be and why?

Darth

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People want simplicity.

ROKU offers simplicity

BUILT IN to the TV
BUILT IN to the speakers

No extra boxes
No extra wires
No extra remotes

Much like we used to have external hard drives and disc drives and modems, in the future, this will not exist.

Just a Fool

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Why does DIS need ROKU? DIS could easily mail their viewers their version of an Amazon Fire Stick or similar to what Comcast did today (see previous post for link to article) for free and most likely will.

Frankly I think they most likely won’t, but you are asking the right question. And it’s not only, “Why does Disney need ROKU?” But also, “Why does anyone need ROKU?”

If being imbedded into televisions is so valuable to Roku, maybe LC and Samsung and Sony and HiSense should charge Roku – maybe take a piece of Roku’s profits.

If Roku benefits so greatly from having YouTube and Netflix available (I mean, they account for 50% of the hours people stream on Roku) then perhaps YouTube and Netflix should also share in Roku’s profits.

I’m not a Roku expert, but the competition isn’t the only issue. It’s all the stakeholders. I fear that Roku’s margin is Others’ opportunity.

Bear

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“Why does anyone need ROKU?”

It’s because ROKU is the TV OS (would you buy a computer without Microsoft Windows?)

“If being imbedded into televisions is so valuable to Roku, maybe LC and Samsung and Sony and HiSense should charge Roku – maybe take a piece of Roku’s profits.”

The TV makers listed have no experience nor desire to be TV software companies (for the same reason Dell and HP and Lenovo PAY Microsoft and not the other way around)

Oh look - this just announced by Roku (TODAY) - note that the OS by Comcast and Samsung just fell behind a bit more. Better get more software developers on it…I wonder how long it will be until they realize that they are pouring money down a hole to stay a generation behind Roku.

“The Roku OS allows consumers to easily get to the content they want to watch so they can sit back and relax,” said Ilya Asnis, senior vice president of Roku OS at Roku. “With Roku OS 9.2, we are giving our customers new content-rich experiences around 4K, voice and home screen controls.”

P

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*** Why does DIS need ROKU? DIS could easily mail their viewers their version of an Amazon Fire Stick or similar to what Comcast did today (see previous post for link to article) for free and most likely will. ***

Why does Amazon need a website? They could just mail all their members those little buttons you can press to automatically order stuff. People love them. People love having dozens of small electronic devices all over their house and in their life. They’ve been a huge hit for Amazon, just like I’m sure a new streaming box for every service will be a huge hit for the legacy providers. People already love having one fire box, one or two Roku, and an apple TV, plus their legacy Comcast box. It’s by far superior to one single remote with the best TV OS embedded in the TV or speaker.

Sarcasm aside, JAF nailed it. People want simplicity. Roku provides it. More importantly, people want to be told what to do, and Roku is HIGHLY recommended everywhere you look, precisely because it offers the best value in the simplest way.

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Most importantly, ROKU is imbedded in smart TVs. As far as I know, Comcast software will not be imbedded in televisions. Roku has been doing this for years. I think in the long run, Apple will be a more significant competitor because of privacy concerns. Having said that, I don’t think privacy is a big concern to most viewers.

Gordon

Android TV has been around for many years. Often with Sony tvs (a top tv brand).
I have had Android tv devices and my best tv has it embedded.

I also have 2 Roku devices and 2 other tvs with Roku embedded. Roku is simple, but the Sony tv O/S works with zero issues.

The only problem I ever had with Android Tv is that it stopped being supported/upgraded after a few years. In theory, Roku is constantly updating the sw on both devices and on embedded TVs, so they won’t have this issue (except in a case where new hardware is needed to take advantage of some new/better functionality).

I think Roku will proliferate, but I also question the pricing power.
If Roku doesn’t carry Disney+ or Netflix or Youtube (as examples) I am getting a device that can carry it, or my next tv purchase would take that into consideration.

I previously had an Apple 4k TV…unimpressed for the price.
Assuming Amazon plays ball (no guarantee) their FireTV should be just fine and carry everything you want. Android tv will continue.

NVIDIA has a cool streaming device, but it made more sense if you were going to take advantage of video game streaming. That is another step in the future to watch out for. Microsoft and Google will likely add their upcoming streaming gaming functionality to streaming boxes or O/S in the future.

What tv would I buy for my kids…the one that supports great video game streaming, or the one that doesn’t? Easy choice. Which do you think Millenials and GenZ would choose?

Dreamer

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With all the talk of competition for Roku(sorry the Comcast thing is just not competition), we can’t overlook the competition in content.

Content is an extremely competitive market, with each player in the space vying for viewing hours to drive subscription and/or ad revenue. If you want to get viewed on people TVs you have to get on Roku. It’s no longer just Netflix. You’ve got Hulu and YouTube. Then Sling and Crackle and FilmRise, and Prime, every network, soon Disney and Apple. The competition for eyeballs amongst content is enormous and much more viscous than device. If you don’t get on Roku you will miss where 40%+ of viewing occurs.

No sane content provider isn’t clamoring to get into Roku’s marketplace.

Content is getting crowded. And old players are feeling the heat and it’s harder for new players to thrive, unless you’re Disney and you have the world’s most valuable content already. When Roku started it was the Netflix streaming player with 100% of viewing on Netflix. Now 10 years later Netflix is less than 33%. Conversely Roku’s recent survey shows about 45% of Roku users watched AVOD more than SVOD. The mix is shifting. That will only keep getting harder as time goes on and more people discover more content and more content enters the fray.

Darth

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If you take a look at the Google Android OS, they had to vie for the #1 spot for mobile phones against Symbian and Microsoft which were actually early leaders, and Nokia. As time went on if you had an app, you weren’t going to write it for Symbian or Microsoft, let alone Nokia, you were going to write it for Android.

And today, Netflix most certainly isn’t going to charge Google Android if someone wants to watch Netflix on their cell, any more than YouTube would charge Apple to let someone view it on their OS.

But content is not an app. It doesn’t have to be created specifically for Roku. It could just as easily be on any other streaming device. The TV makers are giving up the farm for a low cost OS, so they do not have the expense or headache of dealing with it. These brands partnering with Roku are, in turn, eating into market share of competing brands with a home grown solution. In all this, the “power” is the low relative cost to install a Roku OS instead of your own if you are a TV maker. The other power would lie with the consumers who demand Roku. So far the only incentive I see is the ease of use of the OS, and they have all the channels, be it Wal-Mart or Amazon or anything else. The neutral position they have allows them to have everything (maybe not Samsung stuff but whatever). As a shareholder, however, I don’t see the “Power” that Roku has as strong as the OS battles of cell phones, let alone Windows vs. Mac/Linux, because the “apps” are not unique to Roku. And they don’t have to be created specifically for Roku.

So while I don’t think the Power of Roku is as low as some are making it out to be, it’s not as high as I’d like it to be. I’d like a more sure fire driver from the consumer end to want nothing but Roku.

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I haven’t been following Roku, but just wanted to highlight that Roku has been in the UK for years - although I don’t know how much traction it has.

Alex

I just can’t get behind ROKU as an investment. They are too reliant on TV makers to help them grow their customer base. The truth is, your average consumers don’t care whether their TV has the ROKU OS on it or not. It’s just not part of the Smart TV purchase decision.

As the streaming wars heat up, all that AMZN (FireTV), GOOG (Chromecast), AAPL (Apple TV), or any of the other companies getting into the streaming business have to do is throw a little cash at the TV makers to get them to bundle their own systems instead of ROKU’s. It’s beyond me why this hasn’t already been done, but I expect deals to be cut with the TV makers to displace ROKU or at least offer TV models with other streaming services.

Companies like ROKU that are so reliant on 3rd parties (TV makers in this case) for distribution of their product/services get easily squished.

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Does anyone know the following:

  1. Does Netflix, Prime, Hulu or youtube pay Roku for being part of the offering? I know smaller channels like Crackle do.
  2. Does Hulu, Prime or youtube offer a portion of their ad spots for Roku to sell? I know Crackle and many other smaller channels do.

I think most of the Roku users likely watch netflix, hulu, prime, youtube and in future disney+. If Roku cannot make money out of them it will be a challenge long term. Is it not? Sure Roku seems to be getting a lot of ad rev. But how many people are watching the small independent channels that run those ads? Does anyone have the viewership metrics of say Crackle? If a very small # are actually watching those ads are the brands just throwing money being caught in the CTV craze?

Just random thoughts. No position yet.

I’m clearly biased as a ROKU holder, but welcome the continuation of this thread.

They are too reliant on TV makers to help them grow their customer base. The truth is, your average consumers don’t care whether their TV has the ROKU OS on it or not.

This seems to be a common argument against Roku, but I view the average consumer’s indifference as part of Roku’s advantage. The company has been able to increase its OS share from 1-in-5 to 1-in-4 to currently 1-in-3 of ALL new smart TV’s sold in the US. That means those indifferent consumers now have a 33% chance of getting Roku’s platform as their easiest streaming option regardless of their purchasing decision. The moat isn’t consumer preference. The moat is the pre-existing relationships they have with TV manufacturers. Is that really so easy to displace? If so, why?

As the streaming wars heat up, all that AMZN (FireTV), GOOG (Chromecast), AAPL (Apple TV), or any of the other companies getting into the streaming business have to do is throw a little cash at the TV makers to get them to bundle their own systems instead of ROKU’s. It’s beyond me why this hasn’t already been done, but I expect deals to be cut with the TV makers to displace ROKU or at least offer TV models with other streaming services.

I can’t entirely disagree, but wonder whether this view is too simplistic. If I’m a TV manufacturer who doesn’t have my own OS, do I want to lock in with a potential content provider or go with a neutral platform instead? I already know I’m putting myself at a competitive disadvantage if I offer a TV without streaming capability, so I have to choose something or risk becoming obsolete. If I’m trying to maximize my potential customer base, wouldn’t I prefer Roku? Even if I take some money up front, using any of the companies above limits me to customers using their service on the back end. That might ultimately cost me market share, and I’m not sure I want to do that. Roku’s OS gives me access to pretty much any customer regardless of who they ultimately choose for their content. I view that flexibility as a large advantage for Roku. What am I missing with that line of thought?

I say this not sarcastically but as an honest observation: maybe the reason why this hasn’t already been done is because it’s easier in theory than in practice? Plenty of companies are in a position to “throw a little cash at the TV makers”. Yet that clearly hasn’t happened. Why not? And just how much should we fear it going forward?

Companies like ROKU that are so reliant on 3rd parties (TV makers in this case) for distribution of their product/services get easily squished.

This is a two-way street. Roku indeed relies on 3rd parties with regard to both TV makers and content providers. Likewise, those 3rd parties have to work with Roku if they’d like access to Roku’s leading OS, 30M+ users and/or 9.4B+ streaming hours. Granted, nothing prohibits any of those 3rd parties from going it alone. However, they’d need to forfeit everything found in the current streaming ecosystem. They would need to manufacture their own TV, have their own OS, produce their own content, provide their own platform updates, find their own customers and handle their own billing. Who’s capable of doing that other than maybe AAPL or DIS? Do they really want to make that sort of resource commitment given all the other things they have going on?

I’m not saying there isn’t competition. I just see the market as more intertwined than some of the statements above imply. If manufacturing, content and distribution agreements didn’t make financial sense, then why are all these companies choosing to enter them? Shouldn’t every company simply go solo? There’s a reason all the firms you list above have chosen to find a way to work with Roku thus far. And I’d have to think this will continue to be the case until Roku sees a marked slowdown in customers, hours, platform revenues and/or platform revenues as a percentage of total revenues. At least that’s what I’ll be watching going forward.

I just can’t get behind ROKU as an investment.

And I’m not trying to make you get behind it. I’m just trying to clarify the bear thesis. I might be totally wrong, and believe me it won’t be the first time. Heck, I own the stock without even using the product! Maybe that’s created holes in my logic. If so, poke away. I’d welcome as many flaws as you can find. It might either make or save me money.

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Texmex,

The questions you ask would be part of Roku’s “Platform Revenue.” Roku does not break down it’s Platform Revenue, but they do say this:

Our business model depends on our ability to generate platform revenue from advertisers and content publishers. We generate platform revenue primarily from the video advertising and audience development campaigns that run across our platform and from our content partners on a transactional basis when new subscriptions are purchased and content transactions occur on our platform. As such, we are seeking to expand our user base and increase the number of hours that are streamed across our platform in an effort to create additional platform revenue opportunities. The total number of hours streamed, however, does not correlate with platform revenue on a period-by-period basis, because we do not monetize every hour streamed on our platform. As our user base grows and as we increase the amount of content offered and streamed across our platform, we must effectively monetize our expanding user base and streaming activity. Moreover, streaming hours on our platform are measured

It is a huge undertaking for what Roku is doing, and they are doing it at scale. It’s no different than LG or any other smartphone maker building their own OS and getting rid of Android. Why is there no discussion of that? As for Google coming in, they already have a smart TV OS and it is gaining no traction.

Wood was clear why this was the case in one of his recent presentations. When smart phones came out, operating systems designed for other products were retrofitted to run smartphones. These operating systems failed, and Android, an OS built from the ground up for smartphones, emerged as the leader. The same thing is now happening with smart TVs where operating systems created for smart phones and tablets are failing when trying to be adapted to TVs.

Why does Hisense and TCL not make their own operating system? Because Roku gives them economies of scale, development costs are spread over 33% of all TVs sold today. Only Samsung has that kind of market share. This, quite frankly, allows TV makers to offer the best product at the lowest price. This has been translating to them winning market share.

Here is an article that breaks down how ROKU makes money on it’s Platform. https://seekingalpha.com/article/4255721-roku-actually-make-…

Sorry, I cannot break down by numbers. Those numbers don’t seem to be public. At the end of the day we can follow the numbers. We can say what we want about what WE would do, not watch Roku Channels and allow them to sell us ads, etc., but at the end of the day, the numbers tell what the public does. Not everyone has the same views as to watching commercials.

Personally, I plan on buying a Roku device in the near future. As more and more streaming services come online, it’s better for Roku. Roku offers a way to manage all these streaming services through a single system, payment and all. And when you want to search for a show or TV, Roku searches through all your services to show you which it may be on. Ever want to watch a movie, but not see it on Netflix, so you search all the other services? Roku makes that easier.

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