Semi OT: Covid vaccine efficacy

Well, @NewInvestorKinda …the cholesterol denialism/statin phobia you’re asking about has a very close resemblance to the anti-science sentiments that are commonplace in the anti vaxx movement. Generally most rampant in those with no real reason to be as confident as they are in their perceived knowledge (smacks a bit of that Dunning-Kruger effect)…and by virtue of that Google Bamboozle demonstrated in a different thread, you can always find support for a dodgy point of view if you choose your seach words to do just that, and even come to believe yourself to be an outside the box thinker by glomming onto the nitwittery.

Usually due, mind, to simple ignorance…and there’s nothing wrong with that. I was ignorant of my quite severe coronary artery disease the day before I got the results of my CAC scan…I chose not to remain ignorant and wrap myself in the comfort of science denialism by not responding to the results.

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The two conditions don’t generally go hand in hand.

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Money wasted and bad side effects?

Modern medicine is mostly about treating symptoms. Incurable diseases are Manna from Heaven for the drug industry. I paid my dues for decades until I found that healthy eating and healthy living are the cure. I used to take some eight drugs that my doctor warned were for life, including stations. One of them was VIOXX.

Vioxx, also known by its generic name rofecoxib,was a prescription nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drug (NSAID) used to treat pain and arthritis. It was marketed by Merck and approved by the FDA in 1999. However, it was later withdrawn from the market in 2004 due to an increased risk of cardiovascular events, such as heart attacks and strokes, according to the New England Journal of Medicine.

Just a glitch, no harm done. Right!

As my health improved through healthy eating and healthy living I discontinued all my medicaments under medical supervision. The last one to go were the statins. My doctor suggested continuing it. I asked him, “Is it urgent?” To which he replied, “No, it’s preventive.” I replied, “In that case I’m not taking it.” Ten years later I’m still alive and healthy.

The point is, who is in charge? I highly recommend watching the play/movie “Whose Life is it Anyway?”

The Captain

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I am down over 40 pounds. I no longer have high BP, my cholesterol is excellent, and my sugar commonly reads 90, the A1C 5.9.

My weight loss is continuing on successfully this year.

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Yes indeed. Healthy eating and living are most certainly the cure if unhealthy eating and living are the sole cause of any complaints. No doubt there are folk with no discernable genetic risk factors for, say, ASCVD and whose acquired risk factors are down to their own choices.

Statins…like many other medications prescribed in abundance these days (insulin springs to mind)…were probably never originally intended for use in those who “lifestyle” themselves sick but rather the folk (like me or, say, type1 diabetics) for whom good custodianship of their bodies wasn’t adequate prevention.

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That’s great. Now, are these numbers all achieved without adjunct medication? For example…my LDL-C is currently hanging in at around 30-33 mg/dL. Only achieved (and probably only achievable) with high dose statins and a PCSK9 inhibitor.

Indeed!

The Captain

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Yes and partially no.

The weight loss has not be and is not supported by drug treatments.

I am off BP med. I use minor doses of Crestor and Metformin for now. Metformin does not do anything if it is not needed. The 90 reading means Metformin is not doing anything. The Crestor is unneeded because the readings are that good. But I have calcium in the arteries so why not ward off plaque? I am type II and more high risk for that.

As I said early doctors use these drugs as standard “practical” care.

I had almost a decade of my life ruined by adverse reactions to Statins that went professionally mis diagnosed by my doctor. Kept saying I was getting too much exercise. (Walking 5 miles a day is too much for my legs) Then he read a book or saw a commercial that mentioned intermittent claudication. That’s what I had. Until after seeing 3 different vascular surgeons I didn’t have. The final one wrote my GP a really nasty professional “Doctor vs doctor” letter that I saw. “STOP TRYING TO DIAGNOSE THIS MAN WITH INTERMITTENT CLAUDICATION!” yes, shouty all caps. and “LEAVE HIM ALONE.” The continuing pain, numbness and lost use of my legs was never addressed. Shrugs. All of these symptoms were addressed in the package insert for lipitor however. Dumbasses! There were other symtptoms I won’t go into here but were also on the list.
The MD’s: That wouldn’t happen. That’s a rare occurrence. Every lying BS STHU “you have to believe me, I’m a doctor” excuse there is.

And my cholesterol was 204 instead of the 199 that “science says” is good. That’s what had supposedly totally clogged my leg arteries at the age of 41. Don’t tell me they’re using science because they’re not. Anyone who understands science knows this. Any protestations to the contrary are false.

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I dont know, statins are pretty cheap and have a really good side effect profile. I started myself on one and am hesitant to stop even as ive become healthier in diet and exercise/weight

The arteries in your legs were clogged?

I’m glad it works for you. No statins works for me.

The Captain

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One thing that people forget is that science, medicine or otherwise, is a continued (ie forever) process of learning and data accumulation/interpretation.

It is basically impossible to PROVE anything. Even gravity is a theory. We have really good evidence that when you have something really small near something really big (mass not volume), the small one will be drawn the the big one. Uncountable daily confirmations and scientific experiments across all kinds of environements on earth and otherwise.

But noone has been able to explain WHY this should happen or actually find this unspeakable unseen force.

And of course there are multiple theories of gravity. Newtons law of universal gravitation (what most of us think of and use daily) and einsteins general relativity (always been hard for me to wrap my head around).

New information came out and it altered our understanding of the universe. This is good and how science should be practiced.

The same goes for medicine. When will we have enough data to say somethings is safe or “works” (effective? - What that means can be very different to different people). Will our view of what’s good and bad change as we understand more about our bodies and our world? Certainly. And it should.

So do we hold off on all new interventions and medications forever bc new information MAY come out in the future? When is it enough?

Its a VERY hard question to answer. And very different if you have a disease with no cure or treatment vs something for which a reasonably good/effective standard of care exists. Think stage 4 met cancer, some people may be ready to go, but some people, esp children may not, and witholdong a medication that seems effective on the off chance that contradictory information come out in the future seems cruel. At the same time you end up wrong and youll be crucified by society for trying to line the pockets of pharma companies.

But thats how the human race moves forward. We try something, when we get new results and data we make adjustments and try again, and monitor outcomes again, adjust, montitor again, adjust. And, as a provider, every mistake you make in that process is one more nightmare that keeps you up at night.

Thats science. Thousands of experiments that confirm and deny prior results and us using our human brains to put it together in some meaningful way. Then the double challenge for doctors is to take these large pools of data from multiple (often not completely consistent) studies, and apply population level data to individual medicine. It is hard and we’re not always right.

But its stupid to say bc your doctor was wrong or a medication didnt work for you that all of the hundreds and thousands of studies and decades plus work that went into that decision/medication/intervention was wrong as well.

So yes your example of vioxx is a good example of a medication that appeared to have more benefit than harm, but was continued to be monitored after it was started, and pulled when data began to suggest harm that outweighed the benefit.

Good on the fda. Good on science. Keep going. Not a glitch. Quite literally the process.

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Yea my dad had some leg cramps with statins and it resolved almost immediately after he stopped so we found other ways to manage this. Im a little shocked by your 10 years of struggles.. its a pretty easy thing to rule in or out (ie just stop taking the pills and see if it gets better..). After all your just paying a doc for advice, what you do at the end of the day is up to you. You dont need their permission… god knows they dont make money for prescribing you pills. It makes no difference to them if you fill the script or not. Its your life.

Also the leg “clogs” you mentioned were caught on ultrasound?, or were you saying they thought your arteries were clogged but for whatever reason just never did an ultrasound to check?

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Best example of Survivorship Bias I have seen in quite some time. :wink:

Hawkwin
Takes a statin because his is hereditary. Was first diagnosed with a total of over 500 - and that can’t really be fixed with diet and exercise.

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While statins are cheap enough, efficacious, and show a good safety profile, I don’t think I would’ve started taking them “just in case”. My husband repeatedly suggested he prescribe one “if you’re that worried” when I’d start wondering about my “mildly elevated” LDL-C. Truth be told, I wasn’t that worried since, for the best part of 20 years, I’d been repeatedly reassured by my various PCPs that the awesomeness of my custodianship of my body outweighed the little bit of risk attached to my LDL-C. I finally decided to put an end to my wondering…or so I thought…about 3 years ago after listening to a few podcasts on lipidology/metabolic dysfunction and ASCVD, and reading this article on a website I’ve followed for a while (I can heartily recommend it …heartily…geddit?))

How Coronary Calcium Informed a Sexagenerian Flaneur’s Decision on Statin Therapy – The Skeptical Cardiologist How Coronary Calcium Informed a Sexagenerian Flaneur’s Decision on Statin Therapy – The Skeptical Cardiologist

Given that my lipid profile was somewhat similar, I was fairly confident that my CAC score would be too. Additionally, I requested that a measurement of my Apo-b and Lp(a) be added to the Usual Suspects on my lipid panel, just to see where I stood with these highly atherogenic lipoproteins.

Well, that’s how I found out that I was well on the way to those endpoints of death, MI, and stroke…and, quite possibly one of those folk whose coronary arteries at age 22 or so were starting to look like the slides from the Stary atlas I posted images of in a different thread recently.

Yea i know it seems a bit aggressive bur i lived a very hard life when i was young and who knows how much damage has been done. Or how to measure such a thing. 999 hits to a stone wall and the 1000th causes the first crack. Hard to say thats the hit thats responsible. Drugs, sex, and rock and roll right? Seriously tho lots of smoking, ridiculous amounts of binge drinking, and occasional other subtances that make your heart race. The kind of stuff you lie to your doctor about. Not being very careful in the falling in love category either but id like to think that helped my cv system :sweat_smile:. Lots of fast good and steak too. The premed years were wild. Regardless statins havent given me any side effects and im really praying that they do as promised for plaque stabilization to help reduce that one in a million chance of early plaque rupture and mi/stroke, etc. And our race/ethnicity/genotype is known for heart disease as well.

After all, everything we’re doing with lifestyle changes, medications, etc is playing/manipulating the averages and trying to bring our risk number down. At the end of the day when the dice are rolled it may or may not be in our advantage but goddamn it im trying to tilt the table

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Your post misses my point entirely! I don’t have a problem with science, with medicine, or with doctors. My problem is with mandates, with dictators.

Doctors can’t tell me what to do. They can and should make recommendations to the best of their abilities. I decide on the course of action. This independence has limits when one lives in a community, in a society.

The Captain

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IMHO, you have to find a balance.

I once heard a parable:
Man goes to the doctor to get his test results. Doctor says “if you cut out the steaks and burgers, eat more salads, cut out the happy hours, give up the cigars…you could live to be 100.” To which the man replies “if I did all that, why would I want to?”.

I keep that in the back of my mind as I make decisions on how I’m going to live. FWIW.

More to topic, 1poormom went to school with numerous kids that had polio (pre-1950). In the 60s, when I was born, she made sure I had every shot known to man. We, today, probably have never seen polio. I only ever met one person with it (in junior high). It doesn’t exist now precisely because of vaccines. Along with smallpox, and numerous other horrors that afflicted the population as recently as 70 years ago.

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Well, I’m afraid I can’t lay claim to anything similar in my past. In fact, I seem to be a poster child for doing it right and drawing the short straw anyway. I recall early 2021 bellyaching on the Running Fools board to that effect…3 months after my first lapiplasty and it was slow going.

Never wore F-M pumps…too young first time they were fashionable (late 1950’s/early 1960s) and old enough to know better now. Bunions just the same…thanks mam.

Never sunbathed…grew up in England and lacked the patience to acquire a tan and by the time we moved to the US the impact of sun on a super fair complexion were well known, so super responsible with sun exposure. One squamous and one basal cell carcinoma and age spots that used to be freckles…thanks dad

What next, I asked…periodontal disease (having brushed and flossed diligently and effectively since early 20s and dental school) I dodged that bullet…would’ve been a gift from mam and dad if it weren’t so preventable.

Although I firmly believe in doing the best you can hack (and maintain over the long haul) with the genetic hand you’ve been dealt, I’m not so philosophical about the appropriate use of technology when it comes to actually assessing how much damage has been done. Especially in my case when a good few years of supervised neglect by various PCPs has left me needing very aggressive lipid lowering therapy in order to have the best chance of avoiding those MACE and more associated with ASCVD.

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