Some cautions on Affirm

I’d like to express some cautions about Affirm so that no one goes out and loads up the truck without having the whole picture. After reading the earnings press release and conference call and their investors presentation, I was ready to go out and take a small position, but then when I stopped to really think about it, the more I thought, the more questions I had:

First, Affirm carries a LARGE part of the loans on their own books, which adds enormous risk. This is not at all the clean picture we have with Upstart, which carries almost no loans on their own books.

Second, Affirm carries a large part of the loans on their own books, which ALSO makes them very capital intensive. This AGAIN is not at all the clean picture we have with Upstart. Affirm says that they are already funding 72% of their current dollar capacity.

Third where Upstart has concentration, Affirm has total concentration, Cross River Bank originates ALL their loans (according to jonwayne’s research).

Fourth, with Upstart we think about if they get one or two big banks things can really explode. They are at the beginning! But Affirm already has Shopify and Amazon, and they are already partly priced in. Where do you go from there?

Fifth, Affirm is complicated. They have 5 or 6 different ways they make money. They have set asides in case people default (as they did with $32 million last year for covid), and then when they put the set aside back they count it as revenue and income, which makes comparisons complicated. Trying to understand what their true adjusted revenue and income was last quarter was almost impossible. [This also harks back to point one, that they were on the hook for all those possible defaults if they had occurred].

Sixth, Another risk is that in case of a big recession, their revenue would fall off a cliff!

Seventh, If BNPL is so profitable, and so open to wild growth, why did Afterpay, the global category leader for BNPL, just agree to be acquired by Square??? Did they start to see evidence of a major slowdown in the field, or saturation?

On the positive side: They have signed Shopify and Amazon but aren’t getting revenue from them yet. This could become huge! Other merchants may have to sign on with somebody for BNPL to be competitive. (But where would Affirm get the capital to undertake all these customers?)

Conclusion: I will probably end up taking a small position, but nothing like my position in Upstart which is 20+%. Chris has kept his position at 4%, jonwayne at under 2%. I would probably stay under 2% too, but I might instead just add more to Lightspeed after listening to that podcast.:grinning:

Best,

Saul

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Another reason for caution on Affirm is it’s relationship with Peloton.

-Peloton is Affirm’s top Customer and accounted for 31% of its revenue in the first nine months of FY21.

-As everyone who follows Peloton knows, their growth as been falling off a cliff. Its revenue grew 120% in FY21, but it anticipates just 34% sales growth this year.

-Peloton recalled its Tread and Tread+ treadmills earlier this year due to safety problems, which tarnished its brand and resulted in weaker-than-expected sales growth in the fourth quarter.

-Peloton recently lowered its bike prices to deal with a growing number of cheaper competitors.

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I see the Peloton story now becoming decreasingly relevant. Peloton was once Affirm’s flagship partner delivering a third of their revenue. Affirm has recently added a bigger flagship partnership in Shopify from where merchants are still in the process of ramping up. And now also Amazon which is one of the biggest partnerships Affirm could have - this as yet a declaration and no revenue benefit has been included in the guidance numbers. Though as Saul mentioned above, the news is priced into the stock to some degree.

I used the drop today to add another small layer to my fast growing allocation to Affirm as I believe that there is more upside, particularly in the near term as the business from Shopify and Amazon continue to boost GMV numbers. The holiday season is also around the corner and with merchants increasing 5x from prior year, I am already looking forward to Affirm’s next ER

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With just the contribution from Shopify partnership (Without Amazon yet), Affirm’s latest quarter active merchants up 142% QoQ from 12,000 to 29,000, I doubt the market has fully priced this in yet.

I think there is another “pro” Saul didn’t mention - they have a super star CEO Max Levchin, who was a co-founder and CTO of PayPal, one of the famous “PayPal Mafia”. His background can be found from his own simple website: http://levchin.com/

Present:

I co-founded and am the CEO of Affirm. We are going to remake consumer finance from the ground up.

My other main project is Glow, where I am Chairman.

Both Affirm and Glow came out of my data-as-commodity project HVF, which is working on new products.

Past:

Was Chairman of Yelp for 11 years – from its founding until July 2015.

Founded and was CEO of Slide, which Google acquired, and subsequently shut down.

Sat on the Board of Directors of Yahoo! until December 2015.

Before all that, I co-founded and was CTO of PayPal. You can take a look at some early PayPal photos here.

Zoro

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“Seventh, If BNPL is so profitable, and so open to wild growth, why did Afterpay, the global category leader for BNPL, just agree to be acquired by Square??? Did they start to see evidence of a major slowdown in the field, or saturation?”

Regarding Afterpay, you need to look at the backstory on what went down.

Paypal has been slowly moving in on the Australia market for the past few years (Afterpay’s turf) and Paypal has been trying to be the big kid playing friends with Afterpay.

Afterpay did some chest thumping and expanded, mainly in the US, with their strategic partnerships, mainly Simon Property Group malls, in America with the small businesses.

Walk into any SPG class A mall and you’ll see a ton of BNPL options available (powered by Afterpay). Earlier this year, Paypal had enough and said they were starting up BNPL in Australia and that’s when Afterpay had some investor scare. Sentiments kind of cooled until Paypal made their next move: We’re doing $0 penalty fees in Australia.

This is when I believe Afterpay knew they needed to work with someone else to stay competitive and this is when Square wanted to acquire Afterpay for their SMB growth in malls and major businesses already. So many companies in the US already use afterpay on a smaller scale in the mall and now adding that into the square ecosystem boosts their moat there.

So in a nutshell, Afterpay made out getting bought at a premium and it also works out for Square strengthening their SMB and footprint moat.

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“Seventh, If BNPL is so profitable, and so open to wild growth, why did Afterpay, the global category leader for BNPL, just agree to be acquired by Square??? Did they start to see evidence of a major slowdown in the field, or saturation?”

No major slow down and Afterpay still had the rest of the world to go after which they were initiating.

Afterpay did some chest thumping and expanded, mainly in the US, with their strategic partnerships, mainly Simon Property Group malls, in America with the small businesses.

Walk into any SPG class A mall and you’ll see a ton of BNPL options available (powered by Afterpay). Earlier this year, Paypal had enough and said they were starting up BNPL in Australia and that’s when Afterpay had some investor scare. Sentiments kind of cooled until Paypal made their next move: We’re doing $0 penalty fees in Australia.

This is when I believe Afterpay knew they needed to work with someone else to stay competitive and this is when Square wanted to acquire Afterpay for their SMB growth in malls and major businesses already. So many companies in the US already use afterpay on a smaller scale in the mall and now adding that into the square ecosystem boosts their moat there.

As an Afterpay holder and a regular Australian discussion board member over there, I can say this is NOT how it felt at all to me.

Afterpay had already overtaken Affirm to become #1 in the US before the SPG deal. US was its highest performing territory along side UK. PayPal and the other local BNPL wannabes were getting nowhere in Australia nor was the fight back from the incumbent banks there. The Afterpay transaction absolutely didn’t feel like a premium. The share price had been higher on several occasions in the preceding months prior to the offer.

Effectively it felt like 2 forces were present.

  1. A shift in the battleground from the merchant / consumer front to the network front. This was heralded by the PayPal entry into BNPL, (with its own network) as well as the deal struck between Affirm, (which itself had already acquired PayBright in Canada) and Shopify North America, the total integration of AliPay and WeChat Pay with their own in house instalment purchasing facilities in China and deals that Afterpay was striking with SquareSpace and Stripe and Amazon (for referrals), (and probably ones that Afterpay was failing to strike as a native integration with Amazon and Shopify as well as Shopee and Lazada and Tokopedia in Asia which were introducing their own formats of instalment purchasing).

  2. The synergy, symmetry and congruence between Square and Afterpay; both focused on millennials, both with merchant and consumer networks and both with similar geographic footprints (across US, UK, Canada, Spain and ANZ), both with globalisation plans and both developing apps and digital business models aimed at disrupting traditional banking meant that this deal would be an incredible fit and probably pay off immediately on consummation and integration.

It’s a win win for both companies - so much so that it has been accepted by Afterpay shareholders almost as a nil premium merger rather than a premium takeover - it is that compelling in its simplicity. (It’s an all stock offer).

All very much IMHO though.

Ant
(long Afterpay with a 10% position and previously a 5% position in Square)

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An interesting article from WSJ on BNPL - Amazon Is Doing It. So Is Walmart. Why Retail Loves ‘Buy Now, Pay Later.’ - https://www.wsj.com/articles/amazon-is-doing-it-so-is-walmar…

The article highlights a growing trend as retailers move to installment plans because they increase sales and customer acquisition.

The benefits/impact of BNPL:

  1. Afterpay expects to see an increase of $8.2 billion in sales this year.
  2. Affirm said last year, purchases were on average 85% larger.
  3. Banks are starting to offer installment options on their credit cards.
  4. Citigroup saw a 700% increase in the dollar amount of credit-card purchases converted to installment loans (July 2021 vs July 2020).
  5. BNPL companies can approve more customers than banks (including little to no borrowing history) - 53 million adults in the US don’t have a traditional credit score.

As has been noted in the earlier discussion on this board, Affirm has a partnership with Walmart and Amazon. It should be noted, Walmart ended its 10-year credit card partnership with Synchrony Financial because it increased loan approvals with BNPL. Walmart’s goal is “financial inclusion for all.”

Amazon is reviewing proposals to determine if they will continue to use JPMorgan Chase and & Co for their credit card. Amazon is seeking for “commitments to underwrite competitively to widen the acquisition funnel.” [G here: Is Affirm the only company that is competing for BNPL with Amazon?]

Synchrony, the largest US store-credit card issuer, will launch a BNPL plan in October. Capital One will test later this year. Wells Fargo, Bank of America, and Visa are exploring installment plans on their credit cards.

My take/thoughts: There will be a lot of competition as major credit card companies move into BNPL. How does this impact Affirm? Other than a first-mover advantage, I don’t understand how Affirm wins in this space to maintain hypergrowth. I’d be interested to hear from those that follow Affirm closely.

G

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[G here: Is Affirm the only company that is competing for BNPL with Amazon?]

Hi G - as far as I know it is the only one with an agreement for native instalment of the function, however:

  1. Afterpay has an arrangement announced earlier this year with Amazon whereby Amazon pay Afterpay a referral fee as opposed to a merchant fee for customers Afterpay brings to Amazon - so those two at least are playing together in a sense
    https://www.afr.com/chanticleer/afterpay-opens-the-way-for-f…
    https://www.reuters.com/technology/afterpay-let-us-users-buy…

  2. Some of the BNPL players have issued virtual cards and by accepting payment via these, effectively Amazon is allowing others e.g. Klarna, QuadPay etc to be used at Amazon

  3. Traditional credit cards (not Visa or MC but the issuing banks) may from time to time be offering an instalment plan with purchases with their cc’s which I have seen both off line and online. These exist within geographic territories that represent the issuing banks domestic market purchases. (For example my bank - DBS in Singapore will sometimes have a 1 year (12 instalments interest free) offer for purchases from select merchants and I have seen this on Shopee and I think Amazon (here in Singapore) as well as offline with high value purchase merchants (e.g. Apple or HP).

What I don’t know is whether where Amazon allows PayPal to be used to make payment then whether at the PayPal end this in turn allows BNPL which it is rolling out.

Ant

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A.I. lenders like UPST and LC and others of that ilk too will need to rapidly move towards BNPL. BNPL is the key to consumers and rich A.I. data, not sub-prime lending.

Why? UPST have been having great results with their business strategy, it’s not like they’re struggling.

I don’t get all the sudden excitement around BNPL, there are a few companies making the news due to partnerships with big online retailers, ok. But is BNPL something new in the US? Some articles I’ve read this week make it sound like it’s something brand new, when it’s at least a 20 years old payment system (or more) in many European countries.

In Spain every single purchase I made over 50€ would result in a message from the bank asking if I wanted to break it down into instalments, with a small interest rate. Many many retailers offered instalment options with no additional cost to the consumer. So to see this coming up now seems a bit odd.

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A.I. lenders like UPST and LC and others of that ilk too will need to rapidly move towards BNPL. BNPL is the key to consumers and rich A.I. data, not sub-prime lending. I know this forum consists of UPST fans but I am curious to know if someone else thinks differently.

Really, Rakesh?
I must admit that I know almost nothing about the financial world, or about fintech. However I do follow numbers, the results, and I prefer to invest in what’s going on now, not what one guesses will be.

We usually are very happy with companies that increase their revenue by 60% from one year to the next. Last quarter, Upstart increased revenue by 60% SEQUENTIALLY… in ONE quarter!!!

In fact, the last three quarters they grew revenue sequentially by 34%, then 40%, then 60%!!!

And last quarter their adjusted EBITDA almost tripled sequentially to $59.5 million.

And they were very profitable even while growing so fast, making 62 cents a share last quarter alone, almost tripling that as well from 22 cents, again, sequentially!!!

And here you are telling us that Upstart “needs” to move rapidly into a VERY CROWDED field, BNPL, in order to be successful. Maybe you should rethink that?

By the way, I don’t expect them to continue to grow 60% quarter over quarter. I’ll be quite happy with 30% or 35% next quarter. Let’s see: 35% compounded for a year would give them growth of 232% for the next 12 months, more than tripling in size. (I don’t REALLY expect that either. I’m not greedy. :grinning:)

Best,

Saul

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Another caution on Affirm, and the reason I sold out, is because of its partnership with Shopify. I found this article which explains why the partnership is not as great as it seems:

https://www.fool.com/premium/coverage/investing/2021/07/02/i…

In summary:

  1. “Since Affirm is doing most of the heavy lifting in this deal by accepting the majority of the (credit) risk, it would be logical to assume it is being compensated by Shopify. However, that’s not the case. Affirm has agreed to pay Shopify an undisclosed fee for each successful transaction

  2. Any fees paid to Shopify as part of this deal will be recorded as generic ‘sales and marketing’ expenses in Affirm’s financial statements, making it difficult to deduce how much it’s actually costing Affirm to maintain this relationship”

My takeaways:
Firstly, Affirm goes out of their way during conference calls to explain that they have the best BNPL offering on the market. If it’s so great, why are they PAYING SHOPIFY to provide a service to Shopify? The Shopify deal speaks to the weakness of Affirm’s bargaining position, which stems from having a weak product that isn’t as differentiated as they want us to think. If they truly had such an amazing product, Affirm would have the bargaining power to come to a reasonable deal. Shopify would have to pay Affirm for Affirm’s service.

Secondly, I am a software engineer and not an accountant, but I don’t like how Affirm squirrels away the cost of the partnership into sales and marketing expenses. Furthermore, the adjusted values don’t include these costs from the Shopify partnership, so this makes Non-GAAP values look much rosier than reality. It means you have to look at Affirm’s GAAP expenses and GAAP net loss in order to get a more accurate representation of Affirm’s business.

Third, in my mind this casts doubt on the Amazon deal as well. I don’t know the details of the Amazon deal, but of course Amazon would be quite happy to partner up with a company that was willing to pay Shopify to provide a service to Shopify. Affirm may very well be paying Amazon per transaction even more than Affirm agreed to pay Shopify.

I had sold out perhaps a month or two before news of the Amazon deal, but the above reasons were enough for me to decide that there were better places for my money. I do consider adding back in though, just on the basis that it’s likely securing a partnership with Amazon and Shopify is worth taking years of losses. But even that has a good counter point, which is that my other companies don’t need to take years of large losses to secure partners, which reinforces my decision to sell.

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I think you don’t really understand that Affirm is providing service to merchants, not Shopify. Merchants will pay Affirm a % of sales. While Affirm will pay Shopify a fee as it needs to access the platform to reach merchants. This will be same for Affirm-Amazon partnership. This is similar to APP to pay Apply 30%. While you may have some caution on Affirm, but this should not be the reason for that…

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Can I just talk on that last part a little bit? As I understand it, a BNPL provider/lender reduces the payable to the merchant and then recoups that when they receive the retail customer remittances. So the fee is “at risk” with the BNPL lender, as it should be. But the ability to provide a marketing expense (aka ‘kickback’) to Shopify or Amazon is an additional liability? Or is it contingent on a successful recovery of the loan?