It could be that new battery tech will be so good that the difference in size, weight, and cost between say, a 50kWh battery and a 100kWh battery will be so minimal that you might as well get the 100kWh. Sure, that would be great.
Still, there are a few vehicles that offer advanced driver assistance features that make them close to being able to drive themselves. Most of the systems on this list are meant to make long drives less taxing on the highway by handling some or all of the steering and maintaining a set distance and speed behind a lead vehicle.Some of these systems, like Cadillac’s Super Cruise and Ford’s BlueCruise offer hands-free driving on pre-mapped highways. Others have specific parameters, like only being able to operate under a certain speed limit and on properly marked roads. If you’re looking for a car that can do a lot of driving on its own, these vehicles will fit the bill.
If you want an autopilot vehicle per se, only Tesla has it. But many other cars offer advanced driver-assistance features that rival — and in some cases exceed — Autopilot’s primary capabilities. Adaptive cruise control with lane-centering steering is widely available. Ninety-seven other models for 2021 offer both capabilities all the way down to a standstill in stop-and-go traffic:
- Acura: TLX
- Alfa Romeo: Giulia, Stelvio
- Audi: A4, A5, A6, A7, A8, E-Tron, Q3, Q5, Q7, Q8
- BMW: X3, X4
- Ford: Bronco Sport, Edge, Escape, Explorer
- Genesis: G80, G90, GV80
- Hyundai: Elantra, Ioniq, Nexo, Palisade, Santa Fe, Sonata
- Infiniti: QX50
- Jeep: Grand Cherokee L
- Kia: K5, Niro EV, Seltos, Sorento, Sportage, Telluride
- Land Rover: Range Rover, Range Rover Sport
- Lexus: ES, IS, LC, LS, NX, RX, UX
- Lincoln: Aviator, Corsair, Nautilus
- Maserati: Ghibli, Levante, Quattroporte
- Mercedes-Benz: AMG-GT 4-Door, A-Class, C-Class, CLA-Class, CLS-Class, E-Class, GLA-Class, GLB-Class, GLC-Class, GLE-Class, GLS-Class, S-Class, SL-Class
- Nissan: Altima, Leaf, Rogue, Rogue Sport
- Polestar: Polestar 1, Polestar 2
- Porsche: Cayenne, Taycan
- Subaru: Ascent, Crosstrek, Forester, Legacy, Outback
- Toyota: Camry, C-HR, Corolla, Highlander, Mirai, Prius, RAV4, Sienna, Venza
- Volkswagen: Arteon, Atlas, Atlas Cross Sport, ID.4
- Volvo: S60, S90, V60, V90, XC40, XC60, XC90
These cars have many features of autonomous driving, and according to more than one review I have read, better than Tesla’s.
5 Vehicles With Self-Driving Features Better Than TeslaTesla isn’t the only vehicle manufacturer with impressive self-driving technology. Here are some of the best self-driving vehicles on sale in 2022. Each vehicle below is categorized as a level 2 self-driving system, the highest available in the U.S.
I-don’t know where the myth that only EVs could have self-driving, or that somehow they were fated to have sensors while ICE cars were not. Wherever it came from, it’s flat wrong.
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This is a fully autonomous Caterpillar dump truck. No driver needed. One of the huge, 200+ ton variety. And I guarantee it is not electric.
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I don’t know of any claim that autonomous driving ICEs are not possible. It is more the case that autonomous driving in EVs is so much more efficient that the future of self-driving ICEs is limited. GM has made a public statement on this:’
This is apparently a common perception as a recent survey found that about 80% of self-driving light vehicles are either fully EV or hybrids despite the fact that ICEs still predominate the market. SAFE Analysis Shows 80 Percent of Light-Duty Autonomous Vehicles Use Alternative Fuel Powertrains - SAFE.
You can make a computer using vacuum tubes and, in fact, the first generation of computers were made that way. But once transistors and later ICs became cost competitive, why would you? Similarly, EVs have many fewer moving parts and much faster response times than ICEs, making self-driving systems much more efficient in EVs. Given those advantages, why bother developing fully autonomous ICEs in vehicles where the EV alternatives are projected to be cost competitive in the near future?
You are correct in noting that adaptive cruise control is found on ICEs. But those systems are still a pretty big jump from full autonomy despite how they are characterized in some articles. Vehicles that are actually self-driving and being tested in the real world by companies like Waymo, Mobileye, and Cruise are either EVs or hybrids.
In short, autonomous EVs are inherently better than autonomous ICEs. The difference in response times between electronic and mechanical powertrains alone guarantee that. Therefore, developing autonomous ICEs seems pointless.
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My first computer, the IBM 650, was powered by vacuum tubes and the memory was a magnetic drum. Does that make me a first generation programmer?
The programming language was called ‘SOAP.’ Symbolic Optimum Assembly Program.
Symbolic: You didn’t have to remember the two digit instruction number, one would use symbolic names like ‘Add to upper.’
Optimum: SOAP figured out the best place on the drum memory for the next instruction for optimum processing speed.
Assembly: It assembled your hand written code, each instruction punched into a card, into something the 650 could operate on.
Program: It was a computer program!
Ah, memory lane! LOL
The Captain
I was told that, repeatedly, here on the Fool boards by one of our Tesla enthusiasts back in the early days. Others agreed.
Curious, since GM is making several different models of self-driving (or, more correctly described in either world, driving-assist) cars right now. Of course so are most of the other manufacturers, including Toyota which is working on autonomous driving for its hydrogen based (and ICE) automobiles.
It’s obviously wrong (then and now) as some of the research into autonomy was, and is, being done with ICE vehicles. A correct statement might be that it is somewhat easier to use EVs for it.
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Well if I said that adaptive cruise control (or even self-driving) was impossible in an ICE way back when, then I was wrong. But I think it remains an open question whether any company will bother making a true self-driving ICE for the simple and unavoidable reason that to get to a more sophisticated level than adaptive cruise control, you are going to need much more electricity than can be provided by a standard car battery.
And if you are going to put in a bigger battery, you might as well just make the car a hybrid and gain the mileage benefits as well.
Ford, for example, laid out it’s strategy for autonomous cars with what it calls four “core aspects”, one of which is that they will be hybrids:
> Applying hybrid-electric technology to our self-driving vehicles delivers several benefits to our service partner companies, including maximum mileage to keep the vehicle on the road. Plus, hybrids help provide the significant amount of electrical power required for self-driving sensors and computing systems without having a significant impact on the mileage. Optimizing Our Self-Driving Vehicle to Better Serve You | by Ford Motor Company | Self-Driven | Medium
The most advanced Toyota driver assist system is at Level 2 and is available on Lexus LS500 (hybrid) and the Mirai, which is a hydrogen fuel cell vehicle that is essentially an EV. Don’t know of a Toyota ICE model where it is an option. The only Level 3 autonomous cars that I know of are the Honda Legend and the Mercedes S-class (both are hybrids) and the Mercedes EQS electric. My guess is that ICEs at level 3 and above will be oddities at best.
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a35729591/honda-legend-level-3-autonomy-leases-japan/
Couldn’t you just put in a larger alternator? An ICE car doesn’t need to self drive when the engine isn’t running.
I’m in favor of EVs, but don’t think the advantages of them need to get exaggerated.
Mike
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The battery in an ICE car is basically for starting. Once running, there is an alternator that produces all the electric power the car needs. If you need more power for more sophisticated electronics, you just install a larger alternator.
–Peter
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Unless I’m mistaken, in an ICE car the battery is only needed to start the engine, when running you get the electricity from the alternator which charges the battery.
The Captain
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What if you need power while the car isn’t running? For example, every few weeks my Tesla downloads a software update (via my home wifi) while off and parked in the driveway. Then it installs the update at 3am (or whenever I choose) and it takes 30-60 minutes to install. All while the car isn’t “running”.
I suppose an ICE could simply automatically turn on the ignition during these tasks. But it would have to know if it is in the garage or in the driveway at the time, so it could avoid turning it on in the garage.
There you go. It installs the update when you choose. If it needs more power than the battery can provide to install the update, the owner will need to plug the car in to power to perform the update. For something done once every few weeks, that’s not terribly inconvenient. Certainly no more inconvenient than taking the car in for an oil change. Which makes me think that would be a great time and place to do updates. At the dealer when other maintenance is getting done. Kind of like is done now.
Also, you don’t need to power up the whole car - all of the sensors and gauges and displays and lights and whatever. Just the main processing unit, plus perhaps one display to show the progress of the update.
Bottom line, it’s an engineering problem, and one that is very solvable without the use of a giant battery pack under the car.
–Peter
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I’m not a engineer so I can only go with what I’ve read. The sensors, actuators, and computers needed for autonomous driving is estimated to require about 4kW of continuous power, which is beyond what can be obtained with a conventional 12V car battery that is already at near capacity.
> Automated vehicles need between 2 and 4 kW of power to drive their on-board sensors, actuators, and computers, he said. Today’s 12V architectures can’t fulfill those needs because they typically only provide about 2 kW – 2.5 kW worth of electrical power, most of which is already being used up by today’s accessories. Front power windows, for example, burn about 0.5 kW of power, as do rear power windows. Similarly, heated front seats use about half a kilowatt. Lights can use as much as 0.6 kW; wiper motors can burn 0.3 kW; and stereos use 0.3 kW or more. The result is that little power is left for the implementation of autonomous car sensors and computers. Here’s Why Autonomous Vehicles Will Need to Be Electrified
A 48V battery is projected to be necessary at minimum for full autonomy.
With the rise of autonomous vehicles, the need for dual 48-V/12-V battery systems is a crucial step. But managing two batteries raises new design issues, including bidirectional step-down and step-up between batteries. Designing Dual 48-V/12-V Battery Automotive Systems | Electronic Design
One can probably put in a 48V battery into a pure gas powertrain. But at that point, why not just make it a hybrid and gain the increased mileage?
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My iPad is smart enough to wait for a download until the battery is over 50% - or it’s plugged in. There is no reason a car can’t wait until it’s plugged in (and not moving).
And presumably, if it needs all that power for “sensors”, the sensors don’t have to be in use while the car is sitting stationery, so less power would be required.
My diesel pusher RV had 2 “starter” batteries, each with twice as much cranking amperage as the more common 12v batteries used to store power for the coach. There were two of them, although in a pinch you could get by with just one. They were larger, but only about 25% as much, so having enough power to run all the systems doesn’t seem it would be so insurmountable a problem.
And yeah, a more powerful alternator would take care of the issue while driving.
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I guess. It is certainly difficult to argue against anecdotal evidence from your “diesel pusher RV”. What could those actual automotive engineers from GM and Ford be thinking?
I don’t know. Maybe the same thing they were thinking when they thought “Nobody will buy those small Japanese cars.”
And I’m not so sure you’re right about Ford and GM having eschewed the gasoline segment…
Essentially, Ford is betting on the fact that battery technology will improve but EVs need to rely on the convenient and proven gas-powered technologies to support autonomous cars in the near future.
Unlike GM, Ford believes autonomous cars will have to be hybrids initially. But in terms of their architecture, hybrids are closer to EVs than ICEs. They certainly have bigger batteries than ICEs and are wired to handle higher voltages. Toyota and Mercedes are also building their AV capability in large part on hybrid models.
Autonomous driving requires a lot of electricity. The question is whether it will come solely from battery storage (BEVs), batteries supplemented by gasoline generators (hybrids), or hydrogen fuel cells (FCVs). Those are the practical options with current tech.
The idea that AV will be developed in a conventional ICE but with a bigger alternator seems like wishful thinking from the Exxon crowd. Actually it seems ludicrous.
Most everything I’ve seen says you need a bigger battery for AV, something along the lines found in a hybrid. Something that can provide 2500W continuous power. You need something that can reliably power this in addition to all the other electrical demands in the vehicle:
But hey, I could be wrong. Feel free to link any automaker committed to producing a self-driving ICE light vehicle that isn’t a hybrid. I would also be interested in knowing whether there are any level 3 or higher non-hybrid ICE prototypes. If there are, I’m guessing they will be limited to heavy vehicles where electrification is more difficult.
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The 130Amp alternator has been available for cars since the early 90s. At the time it was a large step forward in alternator technology for light autos. Today, we have alternator/generators in Stirling cycle, Atkins cycle and many others arrangements. These electric power producers are tied to the traditional accessory system, off of the transmission and even further down the drivetrain.
One thing is common. They generate more than enough power to run the engine and all accessories. A very large mobile neural network could easily be powered with these devices if engineered properly.
48v architecture is as much about standardizing design principles across models and families as it is about any AV only requirement.
Increasing the voltage pays VERY large dividends when thinking about weight and cost of cables. As a result, when all considerations and newer standards for high voltage SAE based vehicles are considered, it makes sense that an up rated voltage system would come out in the final products. OEM engineers borrow (and steal) from every parts bin. Why would EV/ICE be segregated and otherwise separate? If the customer doesn’t care or is delighted, (cost, quality, safety, features, etc.), this technology would surely be soon to follow.
In case you missed it. There is still no more power dense energy delivery system than petroleum fuels. Using the fueling and range extending network developed over the last 100+ years to underpin new technologies and enable a transition not only seems prudent, it’s downright practical at the end of the day.
Will we be using this design archetype in 20 years? It all depends on how much we can innovate along the way (including all of the infrastructure parts of our systems).
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