ZS results out and stock down 15%

“ but,it is a crazy,unpredictable market. “

STJ
Let me ask you this. When is the market on any given day not a crazy and unpredictable market? I’d love to know the answer to that.

This statement has to go both ways. If ZS for instance went up today and after hours say 20% it would still be an unpredictable and crazy market. The only difference is that no one long would be losing sleep over it. Quite the opposite.

Me? I’ll be adding shares through this sell off as I don’t see any indication yet that ZS is falling apart as a company or an investment.

If Wall Street has decided to run a certain direction, I almost always take that as a sign to start looking for bargains and buying as the opportunities present themselves in the other direction.

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One thing that I tried to figure out is that, despite the assurances from several seasoned members on this board, including Saul himself, could the current crash really be a paradigm shift in the hyper growth space?

Some may point to last year’s selloff and how quickly these stocks bounced back. Last year was different from this time in some major ways.

First, last year the hyper growth stocks sold off together with the rest of the market, as trade war and Fed tightening scared the entire market. Well, with the Fed quickly changing its tune and trade war becoming a seesaw since then, the market as well as the hyper growth stocks both quickly recovered, and then some.

The bout of the last couple weeks happened largely in the absence of general market malaise – a rotation trade many say. Should the economy subsequently slow down further, as many think may happen, it’s hard to see the hyper growth stocks recovering anytime soon.

It’s nice to claim that we are investing for the long term, but if this sector remains depressed for extended time, it’s going to inflict a lot of pain, both financial and emotional, on a lot of investors.

Second, when these stocks started to sell off last year, the valuation overall were quite a bit lower than when the current selloff began. Some of the SaaS stocks still sport higher valuations even after the current selloff compared to last year. This makes snap back a more daunting task. Many stocks may now have to grow into higher price, not being able to count on multiple expansion.

The second point makes comparing with even earlier FUD selloffs troublesome, for those earlier periods saw multiples even lower than last year.

So the big question for the long term investors here is: where do you expect price appreciations in the coming months to come from? (It’s much easier to make the case if the horizon is longer, say over the next 3-5 years.)

bashuzi,

I’ve been having these same thoughts lately. I’ve noticed that the SaaS stocks are down big while the market is slightly up (past 1-2 weeks). The selloffs last October, November, and December were not like that. I’ve also noticed that even good earnings and guidance for SaaS stocks are not rewarded as much as they had been previously. See ESTC, SMAR, and CRWD as examples. And now ZS which was already down 31% from the all-time high may drop another 20% tomorrow for a 45% decline from the high. Down 31% going into earnings is already a very steep decline. The results were quite good and guidance wasn’t that low. To me it seems like evidence that multiples have contracted.

So the multiples on the SaaS stocks have contracted. Will they continue to contract, stabilize, or reinflate? I have no idea if this is temporary or longer term, but for some reason the change in sentiment has made me nervous and cautious. I don’t know exactly why I feel particularly cautious this time and not during the other selloffs in 2017-2019. It could be PTSD from my 2015/2016 losses. Or it could be that the idea of multiple compression for an extended period seems like a real possible outcome. I don’t have concerns about the businesses of the companies that I own (AYX, MDB, ZS, TWLO, ESTC, OKTA, TTD, SMAR, CRWD, PINS in order of allocation). If the multiples awarded to these companies is now step-shifted downward and we are at a new valuation set point then the growth rates in stock prices will closer to growth of these businesses. Again, I do not have a crystal ball and I don’t think that anyone can know whether this is will be a long term step change of lower multiples on SaaS. I think that the huge gains in my portfolio may also be influenced my current caution. On July 26, my portfolio hit a peak of +100.05% YTD 2019. At the end of August it was +83.3% YTD 2019. On August 5th it was down to +75.6% YTD 2019 and today (before tomorrow’s ZS drop) it is at +55.2% YTD 2019. It will probably be about +50% YTD 2019 tomorrow. In 2018, the portfolio had hit a peak of +111.9% (YTD 2018) in early September and on December 24th it had dropped down to +32.6% (YTD 2018). However, the entire market was also down about 20% from the high and the Fear/Greed Index was down to 2 on a scale of 0-100. I think that buying SaaS stocks at that point was a much easier decision than it is today. It just made sense that the the SaaS stocks should be down more than the market and that they would recover more on the rebound. Now, it seems hard to know whether what might happen. 1) if market drops, do our stocks rebound or go down more, 2) could the multiples have reset lower for an extended period or will they go back to the previous levels.

I have used long calls and short puts for the past 2+ years and this has juiced my returns. Perhaps, I was really, really fortunate to enter into these trades when I did. In past selloffs, I have added to these options positions. I have been doing the opposite last week and the week prior…buying back short put positions and selling most of my long call positions with expirations between now and January 2020. I do not want to discuss the specifics but the gist of my actions are akin to deleveraging, bringing the total value of my options to about 3% of my portfolio (it was around 10-12% during much of the period between mid-2017 and recently).

So now what? I think I will complete my deleveraging, be happy with my past gains on 2 years of leveraging, and sit tight with my SaaS portfolio. I know others have been adding amid the selloff. Perhaps that will turn out to be a great move. While I believe that I own among the best stocks out there, I am open to the possibility that the returns going forward may well be more like Saul’s historical average (15-30% range) and not the 60-90% annual gains that we’ve seen in 2017-2019.

Chris

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Tom Gardner wrote this about another growth stock… “I think it has a chance to be a five-bagger from here in five to seven years. Getting there will take patience, and it’s likely investors will have to wait out a few 20% to 40% drops over the next decade. But I think it’ll be worth it.”

I think that quote could be applied to many of the companies discussed on this board, including ZS.

Brian

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“…Either way you might want to find another board that better suits your temperament. This type of investing is not for everyone and for anyone that is scared or feeling pain for losing 20% of your portfolio, well that is only a small loss for this board…”

As mentioned on my previous post, there are many that joined the SaaS party much later than you. They never took the ride up. They do not have the luxury of sitting on huge gains, so their mindset is much different than yours. In addition, many of them got burned by the internet stocks. They do not want to get burned again.

This crash is still leaving us at levels much more expensive than the crash last winter. These companies are at least 50% bigger than were last year. To grow from that much larger base is much more difficult.

Whether you want us worriers around or not, the fact remains: THE RISK IS MUCH GREATER THIS TIME AROUND.
>/i>

This is an email I received and I think it needs to be shared with the board. This has nothing to do with investing but everything to do with timing. This person has no idea if I have huge gains or not. This has the feeling of a person that is looking for the next big tip instead of someone that is looking to invest in a great company.

Saul is trying to give us all rules on how to invest in growth stocks. None of this has to do with Timing or Options. It doesn’t matter if you have invested in a company for 3 years and have huge gains or for 2 months and have a negative return. The idea is to invest in the best companies you can at the time and put your money to work in allocations that show your level of confidence.

I think what many people are getting wrong on this board is how much they make in any given year. That really is not the purpose of this board. The person that made a return of -10 last year and this year makes 50 percent return is really about what this board is all about. It doesn’t matter what your mistakes are, but what your growth is. Are you learning or are you just following? Do you just agree or do you critically think for yourself? Disagreeing with an investment should be the highest form of accolade for this board. The discussion, and dissecting each investment, helps all of us.

Getting back to the email I received, a person investing today should not expect to receive the same return as someone that invested in the same stock 3 years ago. What that person should be looking for is the best investment possible at the time they are investing their money. With that mindset they may get a better return.

Also, people seem to be afraid to make mistakes. We all make mistakes. I think that was the best lesson that I learned from Saul, it is ok to make mistakes just don’t keep making the same mistake. If you do not like the investment you made, sell it and move on. Learn from your mistakes but do not hold onto them.

Andy

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I think it is not so much about ‘making a mistake’ although mistakes are made.

It is more about how one sets up their expectations for their portfolio and stocks over a period of time.

If this period is short (like it is for many in here in my opinion) then there will be great surprises (on the up and down side). The guy who says ‘see I told you ZS has been overvalued and now the market has shown me right’ is WRONG just like the guy who says ‘look I rode it another day and it has given even more gain’ is WRONG. They both do NOT know where the stock will be from day to day, from week to week, from months to months or quarter to quarters. They both really have no clue but they are just saying thinking they have an argument. They don’t. Focusing on that is WRONG. You have to set your expectations correctly. That is the point.
We look at 2 numbers from 2 consecutive yoy quarters, and we observe that this yoy number is smaller than the year before, and we conclude this metric is decelerating. Need to watch that! Great observation! But is that a relevant observation in the grander scheme of things or just a hiccup or some noise? What is the signal and what is the noise?

Individual investing ought to be done over longer periods of time. Over the shorter period, you will get volatility and big surprises. You just have to expect that.

ZS getting chopped by another half? yes why not. ZS bouncing back to above $100 in the next year or two? yes why not.

However I expect ZS to be much much higher in 5 years. Or maybe not. I don’t know. But I like what they are doing and what I have seen. Certainly this is not a stock to totally put out of mind like a Bogel’s envelop. You will have to check on it from time to time…on the business that is. The stock will be volatile.

tj

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I’ve noticed that the SaaS stocks are down big while the market is slightly up (past 1-2 weeks). The selloffs last October, November, and December were not like that. I’ve also noticed that even good earnings and guidance for SaaS stocks are not rewarded as much as they had been previously.

First off, I am still holding a very heavily weighted portfolio of the stocks discussed here (and have added a bunch recently over the past couple days/weeks), but I agree with GauchoChris’ assessment above and it is concerning to me. As of now, most of the stocks discussed here are currently down 20-30% from their highs (exceptions are ESTC only down 8%, and ZS down 44%), while the broader markets in general are near all time highs. The main worry of course is that the larger market drops 10% or more in the future (as would be completely normal and even expected) but then our stocks go down even farther, getting most of them down more than 30%, potentially more.

I have no plans of selling out and moving the money to the value sector some people are talking about (or anywhere else for that matter), but this decline has been unsettling, and I’ve been investing for quite awhile without ever feeling this much “angst”. I know they could go down much farther, and the lowered valuations could last for a longer time than expected, but hopefully the outsized rev growth our companies display will at least start to get the stock prices going back in the right direction before the larger market starts going down.

The other thing I think we need to realize is that the argument that’s been made before that we have diversified portfolios isn’t quite true. I’ve heard we’re invested in security, data analytics, databases, search, advertising, communications, etc, and therefore diversified (I’ve told myself that). I think the hit over the last week or so, and Monday in particular to basically all our stocks showed that we’re not really diversified when all our stocks can drop significantly when the larger market is actually rising. Again, I’m not saying I want to do anything differently, just pointing out that I don’t think we’re as “diversified” as we thought we were.

No great point to my message, just putting my thoughts out there as I doubt I’m the only one with concerns.

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