Not talking about weight loss … but rather physiology, biochemistry, and ketone production. If fat and protein were to produce glucose as rapidly as you believe, then a state of dietary ketosis would be impossible.
I noted that. I have read about it. It does happen in the liver. I am not denying that. It is not good for you. But I have no idea as to why not. I did not ask my BIL. I have other problems with it. My triglycerides skyrocket. So I write off such diets. I have gained weight with such a diet enos ago.
While I read about it I did not memorize why. It is not my thing.
Cutting calories is the unfaced reality.
Where did you get that? You made that up. You do not know that. It is as rapid either way.
Ketones weren’t their pH different? Let me check.
Well checking…something related but worse than a different pH.
Do ketones affect pH?
When the level of ketones in the blood reaches an excess, such that the buffering capacity of the plasma is exhausted due to the depletion of bicarbonates, it can lead to metabolic acidosis with a drop in blood pH, a condition known as ketoacidosis that can occur in many metabolically deranged situations.Mar 29, 2016
Those diet books are like mini horror stories at night.
BTW this is why you need a balanced diet with carbs in it.
Dietary ketosis is not ketoacidosis
Did you figure that out? Amazing.
You do know they are related?
This is all by googling
The ketogenic diet typically consists of a high-fat, adequate protein and low carbohydrate diet that has previously been thought to be relatively safe for weight loss. However, when carbohydrates are completely removed from the diet an overproduction of ketones bodies results in ketoacidosis .
But…but…fat and protein can produce glucose as rapidly as carbohydrates. According to you. Are you sure it’s moi who’s mistaken?
You are confused. You are misinformed.
Carbs, fats and proteins are more than one thing in each. They do more than one thing in the body. The primary thing all three of them do in the liver is become glucose.
I can not make it simpler than that.
You need to restudy the topic. You do not know anything about it from what I am seeing.
I thought I was giving you a good opportunity to educate me and other dundeheids who lack your knowledge base since my sources aren’t up to your exacting standards.
If … as you claim…fat and protein can produce glucose as rapidly as carbs, how on earth does ketone production ever happen? For either dietary ketosis or ketoacidosis.
Type 1 diabetics would lead a very difficult life with glycemic control if the body worked like this
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Muscle breaks down glycogen and proteins and releases lactate and alanine. Alanine, lactate, and glycerol are delivered to the liver and used as precursors to synthesize glucose (gluconeogenesis). NEFAs are oxidized in hepatic mitochondria through fatty acid β oxidation and generate ketone bodies (ketogenesis). Liver-generated glucose and ketone bodies provide essential metabolic fuels for extrahepatic tissues during starvation and exercise.
Energy Metabolism in the Liver - PMC.
My comments carbs are necessary to not go into ketoacidosis.
Your assumptions on ketone production are off…
Does protein produce ketones?
Protein has a moderate insulin-stimulating effect, and although it’s less than the impact from a similar amount of carbohydrates, it can interfere with ketone production by the liver when consumed in excess.Apr 25, 2018
Some sources suggest fat creates the ketones. The sources are wrong to an extent.
The resulting glycerol and fatty acids are released into the blood, and travel to the liver through the bloodstream. Once in the liver, the glycerol and fatty acids can be either further broken down or used to make glucose .
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back to the top of this post’s source
Liver energy metabolism is tightly controlled. Multiple nutrient, hormonal, and neuronal signals have been identified to regulate glucose, lipid, and amino acid metabolism in the liver. Dysfunction of liver signaling and metabolism causes or predisposes to nonalcoholic fatty liver disease (NAFLD) and/or type 2 diabetes.
My comments, insulin resistance is the signal that causes insulin problems in type 2 diabetes. Where we began.
Google result
Insulin resistance in adipose tissue results in a reduction in the uptake of circulating free fatty acids and an increase in the hydrolysis of stored triglycerides by lipases . The net result of these actions is an increase in circulating free fatty acids.
Another Google result NIH
Most, although not all, studies suggest that higher levels of total fat in the diet result in greater whole-body insulin resistance .
My comments it is not about carbs.
Neither is weight loss. Weight loss is about cutting calories.
I should expect as much resistance to that idea as can possibly thrown at it. No one wants to face cutting calories.
BTW this is how dingy people are. Many of us overeat and need to undereat to lose weight. But every diet discussion on TV starts with how to lose weight without cutting calories. Don’t believe it. No $ Sherlock.
For extra points on dingy in this conversation. All the doctors tell type 2 diabetics that are overweight that losing weight would probably solve the problem for the most part. Cutting calories? That suggestion takes a brave doctor.
My gut tells me two things, but I doubt there is any way to “prove” them empirically:
- Fat demonization. Two facts - fats make food taste good, and sugars make food taste good. And apparently humans develop preferences for foods that taste good. When we demonized fats, we switched to sugars instead, for many of our foods. This is a demonstrable fact. The obesity epidemic began more or less at this point.
- Suburbia. When the concept of suburbia began, people started driving everywhere, some time later, they also began driving their kids everywhere. This reduced walking. The obesity epidemic began more or less at this point.
I suspect that these two phenomena may be the major cause of rampant obesity in the USA. And over the decades it’s been spreading to other countries.
Just for fun, based on my movement chart from my phone, can any of y’all guess what day I got back home to my suburb (and my cars) after being in a country overseas for over a month?
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Food habits.
There are habits around food. We now have food everywhere on every street corner.
Eating is a habit. Our days are longer and wearier. We create habits later in the night.
Habits are just one of the signs of an addiction. Another is chemicals we are rewarded with sugar, fat, and salt.
Emotionally we are rewarded.
Psychologically we won’t face reducing calories. It goes against our survival instincts. Some folks naturally eat less and the instinct is not going to hurt them. Some folks fight the battle of putting one more thing in their mouths. Rinse and repeat.
BTW the four habits, physical habit, chemical substance, emotional reward and psychological were taught to me when I cold turkey quit smoking.
That explains a lot. The number of self-described experts in all fields has increased exponentially due to Google.
For those more interested in a science-based perspective, I want to emphasize that we know very little about human nutrition because it turns out to be very complicated. However, one thing we do know is that protein consumption has very little impact on blood glucose levels, particularly if the diet also includes carbohydrates.This is not controversial (except apparently for those who get their info from Google and in-laws, but I digress). One of the more interesting experiments demonstrating this is one where volunteers were fed isotope-labeled proteins (in eggs) with no carbs after fasting for 12 hours.
There was no increase in glucose production after the meal and, in fact, blood glucose levels declined after five hours post-meal. The isotope-labeling showed that less than 10% of the the glucose produced within 8 hours of the meal came from the digested protein. In short, the human body chooses to produce almost all its glucose from sources other than the ingested protein. Or as the paper concludes:
“We can thus suppose that the participation of dietary proteins will be negligible in the presence of carbohydrates in the meal. We provided the first direct evidence that under optimal gluconeogenic conditions and in a realistic nutritional situation, dietary proteins only make a relatively modest contribution to the maintenance of blood glucose levels.”
The human body can make glucose from proteins to maintain blood glucose levels, but only as a last resort. If it does happen, you are probably either taking in huge amounts of protein via supplements or in the process of starving.
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For sure, Google can be a double edged sword…or, as I usually put it, can be a bit like tip toeing blindfold through a field of cow pats. Without yer wellies.
Thing is, in this instance, the fundamental information isn’t exactly wrong as far as I can discern from the most recent post mash up…but an explanation of the wrong processes. That is, it still doesn’t validate the assertion that fat and protein can produce glucose equally as quickly as carbohydrates. [edit:…that’s dietary fat and protein]
More a function of failure to read thoroughly/think about/understand before posting.
That’s why a Gish Gallop would turn into a slow shuffle for me. In reading something thoroughly and thinking about it enough, I usually find it so interesting that I have to investigate further. Especially when it’s something I hadn’t known or thought I knew…but didn’t.
Thanks for the mention of the labeled eggs study. I was sure someone had thought to look at how quickly…or slowly dietary protein produces glucose
This is a very clever technique! I wonder if it can be “generalized” to other dietary items? I also wonder how costly it would be to do so.
Apparently, it happens a lot. Has done so for quite a while. In tip-toeing cautiously through Google’s field of cow pats, there were articles/studies dating back to the 1990s. Who knew?
Your link is dated…“METABOLISM| APRIL 16 2013”
You are citing a pile of outdated smelly garbage.
You have zero knowledge on this topic.
The Google results I was citing were mostly NIH studies that were from 2018 forward. In all honesty this morning I am not finding the specific result right now when looking. There is too much commercial diet crap burying it on Google.
Besides the gold standard in glucose tests is Glucose Tolerance test where Glucose levels revert within two hours if the participant is healthy. Your test was looking 5 hours later.
As I have been saying the information out there is garbage.
I shouldn’t be surprised at the extensive use of radio isotopes here, mind. The use in medicine stretches back to the 1950s.
The first radio immuno assay was developed by Roslyn Yalow (a nuclear physicist) and Solomon Berson (an internist)…and to measure endogenous circulating insulin, no less. Yalow was awarded a Nobel Prize in the 1970s (Sol Berson was dead by then) it was such a consequential development for determining metabolism of macronutrients. A plethora of RIAs hit the scene subsequently. My husband’s PhD in the 1970s used a new assay for measuring trypsin…and in 1981 spent a post-doc year in Ros’s lab at the Bronx VA as a Berson fellow. Secretin was his project then. Interesting times.
This is not from Google but rather oral history (I woz there!)…but I’m sure there’s plenty on the topic.
All that means is that these data have been around for long enough for anyone to refute (with better evidence) and to be aware of. Neither situation appears to be the case
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No that is not what it means. It is an unproven field at that time.
Last Update: July 17, 2023.
Glucose is central to energy consumption. Carbohydrates, lipids, and proteins all ultimately break down into glucose, which then serves as the primary metabolic fuel of mammals and the universal fuel of the fetu(this word is not allowed). It serves as the major precursor for the synthesis of different carbohydrates like glycogen, ribose, and deoxyribose, galactose, glycolipids, glycoproteins, and proteoglycans. On the contrary, in plants, glucose is synthesized from carbon dioxide and water (photosynthesis) and stored as starch. At the cellular level, most often, glucose is the final substrate that enters the tissue cells and converts to ATP (adenosine triphosphate).
My comment timing is an important factor. The regular routine people are not fasting for longer periods. The consumption of macronutrients during the day it does not matter when they are consumed. The results matter more. The macronutrients all turn to glucose that day. They all need to be used that day or you can gain weight over the course of the week. The “scientific” measures in such prior studies trying to isolate factors do not work to prove things.
I think you are being generous. I see it as selectively picking facts out of context to support a preconceived belief. I have no patience with that.
Simple carbohydrates (e.g. saccharides) from diet are quickly made into glucose. Active glucose gets stored in the liver and muscles as glycogen. Those are the first two sources of energy the body uses. When glycogen stores decline, a set of metabolic pathways called gluconeogenesis activates. For most people it will be noticeable about 6 hours of fasting. Gluconeogenesis is the production of glucose from non-carbohydrates.
As most know, insulin is produced when blood glucose is high. This stimulates muscle cells to take up glucose from the blood and inhibits gluconeogenesis in the liver. During fasting, blood glucose declines. Insulin levels also decline while levels of the hormone glucagon rises. High glucagon stimulates the use of fatty acids for energy production in fat cells and skeletal muscles, which together make up about 60% of the body and happens pretty quickly. This reduces the demand for glucose and represents the next major contributor to the maintenance of blood glucose levels after carbohydrates.
At the same time, high glucagon activates gluconeogenesis in the liver. Glycerol (from fat and adipose tissue) and the amino acids alanine and glutamine can now be used to make glucose. Unlike carbs and fats, proteins are not stored for fuel. There is no protein equivalent of glycogen or adipose tissue. If amino acids are being used for energy it typically means that other proteins are being degraded to get those amino acids, hence the fear of muscle loss during fasting. This process is highly regulated and can be seen as a last resort.
Now all of this applies to a “normal diet” and a “normal individual”. A very high protein diet can give different results and there is some evidence that a high protein meal can induce a delayed but significant blood glucose spike in Type 1 diabetics.
Nutrition is complicated.
This will probably provide more info than you want: Stable isotopes: their use and safety in human nutrition studies | European Journal of Clinical Nutrition.
Seriously, cut down on the coffee and take a walk. Then read this from the NIH, updated in 2023.
During a prolonged fast or vigorous exercise, glycogen stores become depleted, and glucose must be synthesized de novo in order to maintain blood glucose levels. Gluconeogenesis is the pathway by which glucose is formed from non-hexose precursors such as glycerol, lactate, pyruvate, and glucogenic amino acids. Physiology, Gluconeogenesis - StatPearls - NCBI Bookshelf.
Glycogen is how excess carbs from diet is stored. Carbs are used first, then comes fat and protein.
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Go up a post to my last post. I proved you entirely wrong.
You are spreading false information. You have almost no knowledge of this topic.
We all need balanced diets. Those of us concerned with our weight need to cut calories.