Exercise and Weight Loss: spooky action at a distance

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The important part of the work to me is that it suggests the brain is part of the immediate water regulation system of the body. Even short-term (acute) dehydration can impact brain morphology.

But again, the solution is pretty simple. Don’t ignore the hunger, just satisfy it intelligently. Very few people gain weight eating stuff like celery, peanuts, or oatmeal (the real kind, not flavored instant). In most of America, it is easy to get fruits, vegetables, and nuts. A mango or avocado is remarkably filling.

The problem with most people trying to lose weight (IMO) is not so much how much they eat but what they eat. A pound of pizza or a pound of fresh vegetables will fill you up equally, but the former will add a lot more weight than the latter. So much depends on water content and the amount of indigestible fiber.

My suggestion is to do whatever exercise one can safely do. Then eat however much one needs to satisfy the hunger. Just preferentially eat stuff with lots of water and fiber. Eat yogurt, an apple, oatmeal, etc before every meal so that you don’t start on the “fattening” stuff hungry. Small behavioral changes like that.

I snack a lot on celery and peanut butter (unsweetened) in between meals. Over time what I eat during meals is increasingly reduced.

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Thanks for caring and sharing but the impression you got from my earlier posts is not reality.

About the study, for me it’s a nothing burger

CONCLUSIONS
Overall, the present study reveals ventricular expansion following acute dehydration, a finding which may have implications for athletes of weight‐classified sports. Dehydration effects on brain structure are of a small magnitude and are better detected with automated processes such as SIENA compared with point‐counting techniques.

My boxing career, as a teenager, lasted about two rounds. I didn’t like feeling dizzy after being hit on the head. My dad’s hotel in Caracas hosted a varied lot of guests including the Harlem Globetrotters, Primo Carnera, a seven foot circus freak, yoyo players, Ernst Hemingway (incognito), Satchmo (gave my dad a signed LP), and Mario Moreno Cantinflas.

One day walking up the stairs I saw a pair of shoes that must belong to a giant. It was the 6 foot 5.5 inch heavyweight boxer Primo Carnera who looked even more impressive because he was standing at least two rungs above where i was. No, I did not box with Primo Carnera but at one time a boxing school was using the hotel’s roof and I gave it a try.

I finally found the shortest route to the Arrabida Shopping mall, 3 miles from home. The average walking speed for 80 year olds is around 2.2 mph. It took me about 1.5 hours (after discounting some wrong turns) at an average speed of 2.0 mph. Researching walking the advice I got was that if I was panting I was walking too fast. Considering all the ups and downs in Vila Nova de Gaia I was probably waling a bit faster than average but nowhere near the extreme of the linked experiment. BTW at any time I got thirsty I drank some water and at any time I felt tired I took a rest. On the way back, when I got really tired, I took the bus. In other words, I don’t think i put my health at risk at any point. The way I check for dehydration is by the color of the urine. Very seldom is it too dark, I drink quite a bit of water.

BTW, I did experience some brain fog after the initial covid shots. For a time I could not concentrate on my software. It seems to have dissipated.

o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o

My purpose in starting this thread was to challenge the conventional wisdom which most of the replies adhere to. I have a long standing habit of trying to match diverse ideas, in this case, could humans be cooling off a bit like camels? I think it would be an interesting study by experts. Why bring up spooky action at a distance? If gravity is not a force then gravity might be a spooky action at a distance. Too bad we can’t ask Albert.

Suggested reading:

The Captain

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Except that you’re not. In order to challenge what you like to call conventional wisdom…i.e. the body of data that’ve been collected over decades (make that centuries, in all likelihood)…you actually have to know what that “wisdom” actually is. At least have a modest familiarity of the anatomy, physiology, mechanisms of action etc that are currently accepted since they’ve survived efforts to refute them intelligently. Not an easy task, I grant you, but it’s a bit of a cop out to pretend to outside-the-box thinking when you don’t even know what’s inside … and don’t bother to take a peek when a few are held under your nose.

It’s been well enough studied by experts already for us to know that humans cool off like humans…because they’re not really like camels

Suggested reading

Both these texts are on my book shelves and still regularly pored over. The physiology book is actually written by Emeritus professors from our alma mater. Can’t say either of us remember them…maybe because they’re too young🤔

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Challenging the conventional wisdom is fine if the alternative proposal provides a better explanation in some way. In contrast your assertion that humans can be like camels is based on false premises. In actuality you now state that you do drink a lot of water on your walks. Darkening urine and feelings of thirst tells you that the water made from burning fat isn’t sufficient to replace that getting lost from sweat. No particular need to challenge the conventional wisdom as you present no anomaly that needs additional explanation.

This thread was a bit of a waste in time, though it does suggest that we should be a bit skeptical of the truthfulness of your anecdotes.

Unless you can suggest how quantum entanglement provides a better explanation for gravity your speculation is frankly of little worth. Albert wouldn’t bother.

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Back in the '60s I was an avid reader of John Kenneth Galbraith.

In his 1958 book, The Affluent Society, John Kenneth Galbraith used the term conventional wisdom to refer to predictable, commonly accepted ideas.

The term had been used before to describe commonplace knowledge in positive or neutral terms. For Galbraith, conventional wisdom was something that interfered with the adoption of new ideas. So, what is conventional wisdom exactly, and are there times when it’s helpful?

The Captain

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I’m also terrible at all sports. In school, I was among the last chosen for any team. When a ball comes my way … I duck!

I learned how to swim in my 40s. Sure I paddled around a pool or lake as a kid, but I never knew how to swim, at best I could tread water, maybe dog paddle, and sometimes a weird side stroke. It’s kind of a funny story. My wife was encouraging me to exercise, so she signed me up for “adult swim” at the local YMCA. Turns out that “adult swim” is “Masters Swimming”. It was hilarious, I come to first session and the coach says “warm up, 10 laps, long strokes, negative split” … I had no idea what any of those words meant, I didn’t know a lap is to the end and back. I didn’t know what a long stroke was or even what a stroke was. I didn’t know what negative split meant. It was truly hilarious. The kids swim coach who worked there took pity on me and started teaching me the basics. I mean the very basics, like how to breathe, how to move head, how to position body, how to kick, how to stroke. So I slowly learned, some from the swim teacher, and a lot from observing others. Finally I was able to do free for one or two laps. Then the masters coach started teaching me more stuff, technique, efficiency, also back, breast, and fly. And I practiced a lot, I was in the pool every night of the week for at least an hour to an hour and a half. Finally I could swim. The coach convinced me to sign up for a masters competition (ages 40-44 segment) just for the experience, not for any other reason. I obviously had no chance to do at all well, but just for fun. So I did the 50m free. I didn’t know how to warmup properly, I didn’t know how to do a dive entry (still can’t), and I certainly didn’t know how to flip turn. In the end, I came in last, and even a few guys in the age 80-84 segment beat my time. Since then, I learned some better technique, and I learned how to do flip turns, but I never learned how to dive start properly, it just doesn’t work for me. Now I swim solely for exercise, and recently hopefully for shoulder rehab. I enjoy it, and it is the safest form of aerobic exercise for me. I can’t run because my hips/knees hurt. Even long distance walking hurts a little. Yeah, yeah, I know I’ll need new hips in a few years, but I am trying to delay that as long as possible because I want to do it only ONCE in my lifetime. I do elliptical a few times a week (pretty much non-swim days), that doesn’t hurt me. And I go to the gym once or twice a week for some very light strength training (mostly shoulder rehab at this point).

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Allow me to genericslly describe metabolism of fats.

I’m gonna reference this site:

A fat molecule, triglyceride, consists of a glycerol (3 carbons with H side chains and 3 OH side chains) in which the O has a fatty acid chain (FA) in place of the H.

Screenshot_20230726-154059
Screenshot_20230726-154059864×1872 230 KB

In fat metabolism, the Fatty Acid side chains are enzymatically cleaved, leaving a glycerol, and 3 FA chains.

Glycerol can go into the Tricarboxylic Acid Cycle (TCA), aka Krebs cycle. Then the energy is passed to the Electron Transport Chain, inside mitochondria, for transferring the energy to ATP.
The Electron Transport Chain is where O2 is enzymatically used.
The “aerobic” part, in which O2 is broken apart, and 1 O is attached to 2 H… H-O-H… H2O.
The other O gets 2 H, too.
This is the metabolic water mentioned up thread.

Glycerol might go through other metabolisms, too.

Each FA is a chain of C.
The famous MCT oil is 6 to 8 C.
Each FA C chain can be broken into 2 C units, called acetyl groups.
An Acetyl attached to a carrier molecule called Coenzyme-A (Co-A), becomes Acetyl-Co-A, can enter the Krebs … the energy goes to the Electron Transport Chain (inside mitochondria) → ATP + metabolic water.

Other acetyl groups combine to form acetoacetic acid and reconfigure to acetone which reconfigures to beta-hydroxybutyrate (B-HB). BHB is the ketone that is used as a non-aerobic cellular energy source.

Acetone is one of the ketone molecules.

Acetoacetic acid is 2 acetyl groups connected by an O. Ie 4 C.
Butyr means 4 Cs.
Beta hydroxy BUTYRIC acid is a different name for 4C.

All that said… I agree that dehydration is to be avoided.
Why?
Cellular health depends on a proper water - electrolyte balance.

Water, electrolytes, and other molecules exist in “solution” … Solvent and solutes.

Too much solvent = diluted electrolytes. Electrolytes can NOT function properly. This kills frat boys via hazing water poisoning.

Water molecules are used in metabolic reactions in which H-O-H is broken into an H and an OH, and the pieces attached to other molecules, to catabolize (break down) larger molecules. Smaller molecules have H and OH removed in order to build (anabolize) a larger molecule, or to fold a molecule (ie fold a protein into a functional shape).

Too little solvent (dehydration) = electrolytes too concentrated (electrolyte toxicity) and WATER molecules are not available for proper metabolism.

Sweating and urination also rid the body of toxins. Drinking water facilitates this. Dehydration impedes this and can lead to toxic conditions inside the body. Liver and kidney damage? Neural disfunction?

Human metabolism does NOT produce enough water for proper hydration.
We have to consume exogenous water.

My comments do not cover all the complexities of metabolism, water, fats, carbs, proteins, etc.
I didn’t intend to be comprehensive.

:fish:
ralph

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That’s not what I said. Let me recap what I did say:

I carry a 35 cc bottle of water with me and most of the time I drink only some of it.

When dehydration came up I was told that this is dangerous. My reply was that when I feel thirsty I do drink more water. I should have added that this only happens occasionally.

Sorry to have inconvenienced you. In the future just skip my posts.

The Captain

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Most do not have that discipline. That is why people are overweight. Mostly.

I get everyone likes to set out excuses other than overeating. Mostly it is overeating.

Sure it is simple but you may not have felt the hunger pangs that someone obese feels.

Remember borderline diabetics and type II diabetics may be going through hunger you do not experience the same way with heavier exercise. Not all but many of them.

You wont get honest answers from many of them either.

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adding I have a stress test in September. It is only because I am 60. The cardiologist already knows I have no plaque in my chest and legs.

I am going to join the gym again. I will do HIIT training to build my respiratory once a week.

I am in a reorganization of my daily habits. The game development just went into full swing. Settling into what I am doing is allowing me to be more efficient again.

I am adding stretching and strengthening four times a week. Maybe five.

Old age? We dont need no stink’n old age. Other aspects of bed time, eating, cooking, walking and work are all getting rearranged.

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[quote="Leap1, post:49, topic:94744, ]

Remember borderline diabetics and type II diabetics may be going through hunger you do not experience the same way with heavier exercise. Not all but many of them.

You wont get honest answers from many of them either.
[/quote]

Yep. Now you can see why I’m reluctant to accept at face value alleged claims of 4 hours of heavy exercise, 6 days a week as evidence that a rational, intelligent training programme is unworkable. Along with my suggestion that believing the wrong things is a barrier to successful weight management.

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Except you have never been there. You have zero experience in this. So that is not honest.

In my own case I know myself. I have succeed in a huge very long lasting weight loss. So your assessment is way off base.

My assessment of the huge exercisers I have witnessed “write” about their huge feats…where they honest? I do not know. Where they successful? Months later no. The ones who reported back were worse than demoralized. The rest disappeared from the groups and the program without a word.

Noom was reporting an 8% success rate. The 50% of the groups doing the heavy exercising were not in the success group. Most of all of the participants failed to lose much weight.

I must have done something right even if you do not know. I must have known what I was doing. I took my sister with me for a huge loss of weight. We spoke once a week on our journeys. She did take 45 minute walks. She was not prediabetic or diabetic. She stalled for a while until I told her salmon is fatty. Then she cut down her salmon intake and did extremely well. We supported each other.

The difference in my exercise at that time that I cut off was heavy weightlifting. I did go for 35 minute walks every day. That is mild exercise. The heavy weightlifting causes my hunger. Seeing as it is the muscle with diabetics as the source of insulin resistance in my case I was doing what was necessary.

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This sounds absurd to me. The fat in salmon is a healthy fat. Unless she was eating salmon by the pounds per day, it was probably a generally healthful diet. Certainly compared to the typical American diet.

At this point, I am pretty much convinced that the irrational fear of all fat, good and bad ones, is a big part of what has led to so much obesity in this country.

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No that was not it Mark.

She was eating a lot of salmon. She was getting a lot of calories from the fat. She needed to cut it down to a reasonable portion. The fat was good for her otherwise.

Women at that time on Noom were given a base of 1200 calories. The men 1400 calories. The first weeks you follow that pretty strictly. It is hard to do that for almost anyone for at least two months.

Later Noom changed that. Probably by popular demand.

Now by popular demand it is pop a pill.

When I joined noom the dieticians were in charge.

@btresist was right about fiber and water. That was Noom’s prescription. With some fats. The issue was the number of calories. Water in particular is filling. The stomach or belly signals the brain by weight. Water is heavy. The grape is the best thing to have as a low cal food.

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Perhaps you’d like to explain exactly where my lack of experience lies. Assessing the concept of folk believing the wrong thing…after career(s) in excess of 4 decades as a dentist and subsequently fitness instructor?? Srsly???

Or would it be zero experience with the likelihood of folk actually doing 4 hours of heavy exercise 6 days a week. Yes, you’re not sure about their honesty now…but it has been your assertion throughout this thread and you’ll probably revisit it in the future, so it’s hard to make sense of your claims.

See, this is where faulty reasoning and wrong ideas has their root. Folk using unreliable anecdotes to perpetuate myths that’re totally unhelpful for folk who’re looking for worthwhile information. Not suggesting anyone reading this actually is, mind…but dumb things get repeated in the Real World too.

It’s a good idea to be aware that if you think you don’t believe any wrong things…you already do

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Bull I have witnessed around 500 people in Noom discussing their stories for months on end.

You keep liking to assume things as if that is shooting down everything. It is not. It is your imagination.

You are a fitness instructor? What was your batting average in getting people to lose any amount of weight for at least five years? You bring up your experience so give us some stats.

I cited Noom’s 8% success rate in people losing 15 lb. Suddenly you are better than that? Just with exercise? okay for how long?

Because the general public has been yo yo dieting and exercising for decades.

What does dentistry have to do with being a dietician? Stay in your lane. Or at least explain how you as a dentist lost weight or got someone else to lose weight.

NOTE I am asking you to explain your anecdotal evidence because you are saying you have it as an expert.

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What percentage of people regain weight after 5 years?

In a meta-analysis of 29 long-term weight loss studies, more than half of the lost weight was regained within two years, and by five years more than 80% of lost weight was regained (Figure 1)4.

Is exercise or diet more effective in weight loss?

According to Colleen Alrutz, health and fitness manager at Piedmont Newnan, when it comes to shedding pounds, diet wins 70 percent of the time. To fast-track your weight-loss results, couple a healthy diet with regular physical activity. When it comes to keeping the weight off, exercise wins.

@VeeEnn in other words your ideas on exercise if taken to the extreme have a 30% chance of winning. How many people take to the extreme? Your anecdotal evidence? Verse my experience of 70% doing better with diet. Meanwhile 50% of the weight is regained in 2 years. Yet Noom originally was claiming 8% success rate. Probably in line with WW.

My own results I have gained back 20% in over two years. My sister has gained back about 20% in two years as well. Both of us are reasserting our diets now.

adding in my own case I mixed in some heavy lifting. Of the first five out of ten pounds regained, the 20% regained of my 50 pound loss, much of it was muscle purposely put back on.

Google sources
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5764193/#:~:text=In%20a%20meta-analysis%20of,regained%20(Figure%201)4.

The Diet vs Exercise Debate For Weight Loss | Piedmont Healthcare.

BTW the exercise diet gurus…this is their track record of helping people.

I help busy 𝐄𝐱𝐞𝐜𝐮𝐭𝐢𝐯𝐞𝐬… Less than 50% of people who lose over 10% of their body weight will keep it off for a year. **Over 85% of people who lose over 10% of their body weight will regain it all plus the Vat within five years.**May 5, 2022

@VeeEnn I will give you and your fellow trainers some credit for trying to help people. It does not work according to just above. Instead it is yo yo stuff.

I did what I did most definitely without the experts in the gyms. Definitely without. I wanted to succeed. And I did.

The benefits of a healthier diet.

How many years does weight loss add to your life?

A man eating the healthier diet from age 20 could add 13 years to his life. Focusing on a healthier diet could also lengthen the lives of older adults, the study said. By starting at age 60, a woman could still increase her lifespan by eight years.Feb 9, 2022

https://www.cnn.com/2022/02/08/health/longer-life-diet-wellness/index.html#:~:text=A%20man%20eating%20the%20healthier,her%20lifespan%20by%20eight%20years.

Just a word of caution

“It is well documented that light to moderate regular physical activity prevents” cardiovascular disease, says the study. “But previous studies also showed evidence that long-term high-intensity endurance exercise (e.g., marathons, triathlons, long-distance bicycle races) may cause adverse events such as myocardial fibrosis, coronary artery calcification and atrial fibrillation as well as sudden cardiac death.”

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I can tell you’re getting very upset at being called out on your silliness so I won’t bother with it all (unless you insist) but you can’t really believe that there is no similarity with your question above, surely.

Maybe I confused you…but the reference to a career in dentistry (and fitness instruction for that matter) was made solely in the context having experience with folk who believe the wrong things so I apologise if I led youtothink otherwise. My bad. Thing is, though, dental caries…which constituted the majority of my clinical workload as a general dentist (periodontal disease too, but primarily dental caries)…absolutely does bear a significant relationship to what folk eat in the way that obesity, metabolic syndrome, T2D etc do and to believe otherwise is a perfect example of believing the wrong thing and it having an impact on an individual’s dental health. And yes, my financial health also… so I’m not complaining too much there.

For sure, although I was more than happy to discuss weight management issues, I never saw that as part of my remit. Inevitably, though, the topic came up in a “What do you do to stay in such great shape?” way (“…at your age” being the unsaid finish to the sentence, I guess). So, as is my wont, I’ve absolutely over the years made sure to stay up to date with current research, trends, etc along with the prevailing misinformation du jour…the better to assure myself that info I’m giving out is solid, regardless of what the recipient of that may think. As one of my professors at dental school oftentimes said…“Be not afeard to upset the patient with appropriate advice…at the very least, they’ll remember you gave it”

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Grapes are one of the WORST low calorie foods! That’s because it’s full of simple sugars. Celery is a good low calorie food, low in simple sugars, and has some fiber as well. Strawberries are a good low calorie food, low in sugar, and some fiber. Etc.

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Fortunately, I was good at the school sports I was interested in (field hockey, tennis and track). I say “fortunately” because I was also one of the super nerdy science nerds. As it turns out, it looks like I’m mostly remembered for the sporty stuff.

I’m not suggesting this applies to you, Mark, but there seems to be a fair bit of historical revisionism around school sports…as in, a heck of a lot of folk remember being the one who was always last to be chosen. My old grammar school has a very active FB page (a grammar school is the term for an academically selective joint middle and high school that was part of the British education system until the 1980s) with quite a few of my former classmates posting quite regularly. There are a good few of the girls who insist that they fell into this last to be chosen category…when I distinctly remember them being the ones who were always ducking out of gym class with notes from home about heavy periods, verrucas, ingrowing toenails etc. (my bestie…who DID have a recurrent ingrowing toenail remembers it my way too) Particularly memorable as, come the VI forms (11th and 12th grade equivalent) the class size had dropped due to the early leavers such that there weren’t enough to form two sides for a game of hockey and we had to co opt some of the lads.

Totally empathise with the swimming as I was/still am pretty sucky. However, my experience was the opposite in that, having signed up for adult beginner classes, I was seen as not beginner enough since I could float confidently and splash around in a plausible attempt at front crawl (solely as a result of taking my daughter to mummy and me classes etc as a nipper) Although I don’t really like swimming, I’d still really like to be able to do those seemingly effortless front crawls that you could probably do. Maybe something to put on the “must do” list for the Old Folks’ Home in the future.

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