General questions about strategy

I want to thank everyone for their input on the boards - there is an absolute wealth of knowledge being shared every day and it has been extremely helpful to me as I am still in the early learning phase of my investing career. I have a couple of questions for Saul, but would definitely appreciate the opinion of anyone who can help me out!

In reading some past discussions, Saul stated that he doesn’t trade options at all. He also said that he likes to get into stocks by adding smaller positions, not all at once.

My first question is, why not sell slightly OTM put options when you find a position that you’d be open to adding to but are waiting for a better value? Then if it stays flat or goes up, you’ve still pocketed the premium. But if it goes down, you’re adding to your position at a lower price like you wanted to anyway. And you get others to pay you for TV, which is usually going to work out in your favor.

And a second question is, why add positions slowly? You’re buying companies only after you’ve put in DD, and the companies you add are often valued very attractively. So I would assume that if you retroactively analyzed your portfolio over a long period of time, the average position would show that the 2nd, 3rd, and further positions you take in a given stock would be at higher prices than the original buy. There will obviously be some times that, soon after you buy, the price goes down to present a better buying opportunity. But if you’ve averaged around a 30% ARR, most of the time the opposite would be true -thus waiting to add to positions would usually lead to higher costs. And since we’re all investing for the long haul, wouldn’t we want to play with the law of averages?

I’m sure there are legit (and probably easy) answers to my questions, but these are both things that I’ve tried to reason through and can’t wrap my brain around.

Tim

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Tim:

Not Saul, but I’ll give my opinions:

My first question is, why not sell slightly OTM put options when you find a position that you’d be open to adding to but are waiting for a better value? Then if it stays flat or goes up, you’ve still pocketed the premium. But if it goes down, you’re adding to your position at a lower price like you wanted to anyway. And you get others to pay you for TV, which is usually going to work out in your favor.

I use this strategy a lot, and have done for the last 10 years, although I recommend combining it with buying a starter position in the stock at the same time so that if the stock price never comes down you at least own some. I also treat this strategy as an income generating strategy.

why add positions slowly? You’re buying companies only after you’ve put in DD, and the companies you add are often valued very attractively. So I would assume that if you retroactively analyzed your portfolio over a long period of time, the average position would show that the 2nd, 3rd, and further positions you take in a given stock would be at higher prices than the original buy.

The market doesn’t care how good your DD is or how accurate your valuation. In the short term it can be a very manic depressive random thing. The so called ‘buying in thirds’ approach is a way to temper this volatility, but it is very much a personal decision. Many people advocate buying in thirds, some go all in right away and others advocate only buying more when the price goes up by x%. There is no right answer - you have to learn what works best for you.

John

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My first question is, why not sell slightly OTM put options when you find a position that you’d be open to adding to but are waiting for a better value?

Hi Tim

First of all, I don’t use options, but I must admit that so many people have said good things about them that I’m tempted to learn more about them. Second, I never wait for a better value. If I like a company I always take at least a starter position.

Then if it stays flat or goes up, you’ve still pocketed the premium…

But you’re sold out of a rising stock.

And a second question is, why add positions slowly? You’re buying companies only after you’ve put in DD, and the companies you add are often valued very attractively. So I would assume that if you retroactively analyzed your portfolio over a long period of time, the average position would show that the 2nd, 3rd, and further positions you take in a given stock would be at higher prices than the original buy. There will obviously be some times that, soon after you buy, the price goes down to present a better buying opportunity. But if you’ve averaged around a 30% ARR, most of the time the opposite would be true -thus waiting to add to positions would usually lead to higher costs. And since we’re all investing for the long haul, wouldn’t we want to play with the law of averages?

Here are some of my ideas about buying (culled from the FAQ/Knowledgebase that Neil so kindly compiles (see post 4020). Please excuse some repetition.

Saul

I actually don’t have a fixed buying policy. That means you can rule out cost averaging over a predetermined time. I never do that.

I hardly ever have enough cash around to take a full position at the start, as I’m usually close to 100% invested – unless I’ve just sold out of a position for other reasons, which has freed up cash. Or if I really like a stock I might sell something else I don’t like as much or I decided was a mistake. But in general, I just take as much of a position as I have enough money for and hope to add later. (I might also sell a little from a position which I feel has gotten too large in order to get some cash).

I can also rule out: “I am tempted to wait and just buy a full position when the right opportunity arrives.” If I like a stock enough to take a position, I will always take at least a starter position, and plan on adding later. I never wait for the “right opportunity” to take a starting position. I do add to a stock when it goes down for no reason on an opportunistic basis, but you can’t take that as a rule, as some of my most profitable deals ever I kept adding on the way up instead of on the way down. (If I start buying at $25, adding at $28 or $31 might seem expensive, but when it gets to $75 or $120 the difference between $25 and $31 will seem negligible. Also if it’s at $25 and I wait for $22, to buy at a “cheaper price”, I’ll really kick myself when it’s at $120 and I never got in because of waiting for a $3 cheaper price.)

  • Never miss getting into a stock because you are waiting to buy it 25 cents cheaper. The decision is whether you want to invest in it or not. Once you decide, take a starter position, at least. Don’t wait around for a slightly better price. When it’s at $50, I can guarantee that you won’t remember or care whether you paid $10.05 or $10.30, but you’ll be kicking yourself if you didn’t get in. (For a concrete example, a couple of years ago I bought some shares of a little unknown company AMAVF at $15 and change. It hit $170 for an 11-bagger in less than a year. Do you think I cared whether I paid $15.25 or $15.50? The issue is: Do you want to buy the stock? If the answer is yes, don’t fool around trying to buy it a bit cheaper. You are buying with a long-term perspective.)

I’ve argued several times against waiting for a price slump before getting in to a company. If you like it and are convinced, at least take a starter position now. I’ll never hold off buying, trying to get a stock 15 cents or 25 cents cheaper. When it’s at $35 a share, you won’t remember or care whether you paid $10.15 or $10.40 for it.

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Thanks for your answers, guys. I guess I didn’t make it clear in my original post, but I definitely agree about not selling puts for a starter position, only when adding to an existing position. Like I said before, I’ve learned so much from all of the boards on this site. I especially gain some great insight from two guys (Saul and John) - I hope that as I learn, I can be as big of a help to others as you guys have been to me! Thanks again,

Tim

why add positions slowly?

Hi Tim,

My answer is I buy slowly, (bit by bit, step by step, slowly he turns…sorry got carried away there on the Abbot and Costello routine), on these small cap stocks and the volatile ones.

I’ve found, though I do believe in the companies, I will almost always be able to buy at a better price later when the market swoons, a competitor threatens, a facility doesn’t produce, etc.

On the other hand when I bought BRK B, I bought all in at once, a full position, and never looked back as it was at an historical low.

The other thing I notice is that companies do not march a straight line to success. It’s filled with dips and spikes so if I have not bought in all at once, I get to buy all along the trip and each purchase is with more conviction than the last, lowering my break even.

This is a very personal effort and I am sure there are many others that do one or the other but I just love to mix it up and I can always find reasons to do so.
Mykie
Hope this helps

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I have another more obvious response as to why I buy in small amounts over time, that’s the way funds go into my account. Every time I add more funds to any of my accounts I have to decide whether to hold on to the cash, invest more into an existing position or look for something new. I agree with Mykie’s approach. As Tom E espouses, this gives you an opportunity to buy at better value points which do seem to occur regularly with almost every company I own.

D.