is there a FIRE knowledge base post?

Hi, I’m a new investor just starting the FIRE journey. I’m looking for some guidance on how to actually do FIRE. There’s information online but not comprehensive.

Here’s my plan based on my limited knowledge about FIRE. For those of us who have gone through the process. Please critique.

  1. starting with zero balance today. plan to put about $10k per month into stocks for 60mo/5yrs.
  2. plan to buy high growth stocks that are beaten down; think SHOP,SQ,TTD and other tech stocks.
  3. assuming a 10% annual growth rate, I’d have about $800k in 5 years.
  4. sell all growth stocks and buy dividend stocks; think HD, SBUX with around 3% div yield - huge tax bill here and am not sure if there’s any way around it; alternatively, I would buy dividends stocks to begin with, which avoids the tax bill but unlikely to achieve 10% annual rate.
  5. live on about $24k dividends income a year ($800k*3%),which is enough for me (house paid off and single); if stocks go down, I’d have more dividend income due to higher yield. if stocks go up significantly, I’d start selling at maybe around $1M mark.

I’m sure there are a lot of problems with this approach. welcome any suggestion.

Mike

1. starting with zero balance today. plan to put about $10k per month into stocks for 60mo/5yrs.

Since you can’t put $120k/year into retirement accounts, presumably, at least a chunk of this, if not all, would be in taxable accounts?

2. plan to buy high growth stocks that are beaten down; think SHOP,SQ,TTD and other tech stocks.
3. assuming a 10% annual growth rate, I’d have about $800k in 5 years.

Well, I get closer to $790k, but close enough. However, since you are, by your own admission, ‘a new investor’ I would question how you expect to achieve 10% annual growth on a regular basis. Think Netflix, Teladoc, Pinterest and Zoom - all great for a while, but nowhere near 10% over the long haul. And if you think you’re going to be smart enough to sell at the peak - I would ask how you think you would know when the peak is, without looking back at it.

4. sell all growth stocks and buy dividend stocks; think HD, SBUX with around 3% div yield - huge tax bill here and am not sure if there’s any way around it; alternatively, I would buy dividends stocks to begin with, which avoids the tax bill but unlikely to achieve 10% annual rate.

Yes, a huge tax bill. In a taxable account you will have to pay at least 15%, and probably 18.8% up to 23.8% on your long-term gains, and your ordinary income rate on the short-term gains (which you will have since you are buying right up through the end of the 5th year). If we assume an average of 20% in taxes on your $190k in gains, that will leave you with a total of $752k.

I think you’d probably be better off just buying index ETFs and just letting them ride.

5. live on about $24k dividends income a year ($800k*3%),which is enough for me (house paid off and single);

Really? Will $24k be enough if we have, say, 5% inflation each year? Because after 5 years of 5% inflation that $24k will buy what about $18.5k buys now. And even though you have a paid off house, your property taxes, insurance, utilities and food costs aren’t going to stay the same as they are now - they are going up. And you don’t seem to have anything figured in for taxes. Assuming you are going to be collecting SS at some point, with $24k in dividends, you will be at a level that at least some of your SS income will be taxed.

if stocks go down, I’d have more dividend income due to higher yield. if stocks go up significantly, I’d start selling at maybe around $1M mark.

Huh? If stocks go down, dividends are unlikely to increase. And growth stocks typically take a bigger hit in downturns than dividend stocks, so you are going to be selling low and buying high - the exact opposite of what you should do. And if stocks go up like they have been, the yield will probably be lower because dividends tend to lag outsize price gains. That’s why the S&P 500 yield is lower now than it used to be.

I’m sure there are a lot of problems with this approach.

I think you are trying to achieve FIRE by being a hare, when most people who are successful at achieving FIRE actually a lot more like tortoises. I understand that you want to make up for lost time, but you can’t. All you can do is go forward from where you are. Take a deep breath, slow down, and figure out a plan that will get you to where you want to be without having to take large tax hits.

AJ

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Very helpful, AJ. Maybe I will think about a dividend ETF like SCHD.

on #3 - I am a little surprised you don’t think growth stocks can achieve 10% CAGR in future given most of them exceeded that level significantly even with the recent drawdown. what CAGR typically do you use in your planning?

you are right on #6 - “if stocks go down, I’d have more dividend income”. I was thinking when price goes down, the div yield goes up, but the actual dividend payment amount that I receive does not change unless the company raises it, which is unlikely when stock price goes down as it likely indicates company is in trouble. So then I would have to sell.

Thank you.
Mike

to clarify #3 - I meant most of the growth stocks exceeded 10% CAGR over the past 5 years even with the recent drawdown.

on #3 - I am a little surprised you don’t think growth stocks can achieve 10% CAGR in future given most of them exceeded that level significantly even with the recent drawdown. what CAGR typically do you use in your planning?

It’s not that I’m skeptical that the right growth stocks can achieve 10% CAGR sometime in the future. But given your very tight 5 year timeframe, I am skeptical. And I am also skeptical that a new investor will manage to pick the right growth stocks, buy them at the right time, and then, even more importantly, sell them at the right time, in order to achieve a consistent 10% CAGR.

I usually use 5% - 6%, but my portfolio certainly isn’t a bunch of individual growth stocks. It’s got index fund ETFs, some bonds/preferreds and a few individual stocks.

So then I would have to sell.

Which, given your plan that seems to have no contingencies for failure, would seem to result in failure most of the time, since stocks do go down. The last 10 years have been an exceptional bull run. Don’t expect it to continue.

AJ

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I meant most of the growth stocks exceeded 10% CAGR over the past 5 years even with the recent drawdown.

Go back and look at growth stocks starting in 1999. As I said - the last 10 years have been an exceptional bull run. Don’t expect it to continue. You need to look at much longer time frames than the last 5 years. I’d suggest using FireCalc https://firecalc.com/?msclkid=c21aa3b8cfb711ec93405900e930f2…

AJ

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I think you’d probably be better off just buying index ETFs and just letting them ride.

X2

Among the things I’ve learned about investing:

-If you know what you are doing, and are lucky, you can beat the index return.

-If you aren’t lucky, you can do all the “right things,” and still underperform due to timing. In 1999, plenty of people and even fund managers were bailing from internet stocks because of insane valuations on companies that made no money and had no plan to make money. One guy even closed his fund because he said that stock picking didn’t make sense any more. Judging them from the end of 1999 through March of 2000, those people were pretty dumb/naïve/passive/spineless/fearful. But ya’ know what? History proved 'em right (eventually). Some people avoided bonds during the near-zero interest rate years because rates had no where to go but up from 0.5%. Well, they could go down…and DID…to zero and even negative. (Some foreign bonds had a negative interest rate!) Those who had bet on rate increases several years ago missed gains, and also may have incurred losses depending on what other things they were invested in that counted on interest rates and inflation not staying at historical lows for years.

-If you don’t know what you are doing, you usually won’t beat the index return. Worse, when fortune favors your mistakes, you may outperform for a period, seducing you into thinking that “you know” when you were just temporarily on the right side of chance. Eventually, you’ll give it back. After all, those who outperform must be getting their money from someone, right?

How I outperformed the indexes I invested in:

  1. By putting money in each paycheck for decades, I bought more shares at the low spots than the highs. When I calculate my return over those years, it exceeds the index returns…but due to math and not smarts.

  2. By staying invested, I never “locked in” the losses due to temporary market pullbacks (45%, 50%, and 35% happened in your lifetime, if not investing career).

  3. By choosing indexes that wouldn’t be wiped out, I could believe that they’d come back eventually and believe in item #2. S&P500 wouldn’t zero out, but the NASDAQ took 15 years to get back to where it was in 2000. The Internet Index of 1999 lost 99%! Besides the S&P500, I like the Consumer Staples Index and Small Cap Value for some money because I am now in the drawdown stage–where volatility works for you when investing (#1), it works against you when living off your money.

  4. My portfolio was >90% stocks in my 30s and 40s. The rationale was that I had more than ten years before needing the money, so market volatility wouldn’t hurt me. At ~54, I started putting money into less volatile assets (and ones that might not be non-volatile, but at least were uncorrelated to US stocks). With the finish line in sight, I knew that I might not be able to ride out an entire cycle.

If you should choose to make a hobby of investing and stock picking, I suggest you follow my process in points #1-3 above to start. Then, when you find a compelling stock to purchase, put no more than 4% of your money into it. That is “sorta like” owning 25 stocks and your new purchase is one of those. That way you don’t have to find 20 to 25 stocks that are compelling buys right away.

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I realized that nobody ever answered the question that you asked in the title. No, this board doesn’t have a board leader who posts and enforces rules likes Saul does on his board, although political posts are generally frowned on. Nor does this board focus on talking about individual stocks, like Saul’s board. This board is more of a place to discuss theories and philosophies about how to get to FIRE, and celebrations when posters hit their goals.

If you want to do some reading on this board, in the announcements box up there to the right, you could link to the board FAQs and read that thread to see why this board originated, and what the goals were at the time. Or you could sort the board by recs and read the threads that contain the highly recommended posts.

AJ

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this board doesn’t have a board leader who posts and enforces rules likes Saul does on his board

Thank God.

Double thank God.

Triple thank God.

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