Legacy autos vs EVs

In a previous thread, the comment was that if gigapresses for giga casting is really useful, then watch for the competition auto makers to “copy” or adopt the technology.
The suggestion was "the Legacy (GM, Ford, VW, Toyota, etc) would quickly copy the tech.

Legacy auto makers are not the competition to Tesla.

This is a Dec 2021 article.

Chinese EV Makers Taking Page From Tesla’s Playbook: Giga Press
Tesla may do for Chinese EV makers what Apple did for the country’s smartphone industry.
https://insideevs.com/news/557473/tesla-giga-press-chinese-a…
Tesla commissioned what it called the world’s largest casting machine from a Chinese manufacturer, the LK Group, and it’s believed that this will soon go into service at Gigafactory Shanghai.

LK Group founder Liu Siong Song recently told the New York Times that his company worked with Tesla for over a year to make the massive new machine. LK will also supply similar giant casting presses to six Chinese companies by early 2022.

NIO and Xpeng are implementing gigacasting tech.
Jan 2022.
https://insideevs.com/news/563092/nio-xpeng-casting-machines…

Rumor is that NIO (a “favorite” Chinese EV company) has a model in the pipeline to the US market.
Aug 2022.
https://insideevs.com/news/604685/nio-rumored-enter-united-s…

“LEGACY” is a Jack Welchian MBA C-suite concept for denial.

EVs are dusrupting Legacy due to the Jack Welch mindset.

:alien:
ralph

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The suggestion was "the Legacy (GM, Ford, VW, Toyota, etc) would quickly copy the tech.

No. The suggestion was that they would slowly copy the tech, as factories and car models - or new vehicles - get redesigned together.

I see no reason the concept of large structural castings couldn’t be applied to ICE vehicles as well as EVs. Those castings don’t care what hangs off of them.

–Peter

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Thank you for posting these links.
This new manufacturing technique should bring down costs.
Report: Tesla & IDRA Planning Massive Giga Press For Compact Car
The 12,000-ton diecasting machine should be able to cast the entire $25,000 car in one piece.
https://insideevs.com/news/540924/tesla-12000ton-diecasting-…
The above link was in one of the links you provided in the OP.

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In a previous thread, the comment was that if gigapresses for giga casting is really useful, then watch for the competition auto makers to “copy” or adopt the technology.
The suggestion was "the Legacy (GM, Ford, VW, Toyota, etc) would quickly copy the tech.

Legacy auto makers are not the competition to Tesla.

But VW is also copying the tech:

https://driveteslacanada.ca/news/volkswagen-first-megacast-t…

EVs are dusrupting Legacy due to the Jack Welch mindset.

The top legacy automaker - VW group - sold 216K BEV’s in the first half of 2022, followed by Hyundai-Kia at 167K. That’s 383K of BEV (not PHEV) vehicles sold by just those two Legacy auto groups. Still less than Tesla at 565K, but that’s still a really large number of EV’s. To put in context, VW and Hyundai/Kia sold as many BEV’s H1 22 as Tesla did H1 of 21.

https://cleantechnica.com/2022/08/01/record-ev-sales-month-g…
https://cleantechnica.com/2021/08/01/plugin-vehicles-have-re…

That’s not bad. Again, only looking at BEV’s, Tesla’s got a 19% global marketshare - but the top two Legacy firms have a 13% marketshare between them.

Some Legacy firms will get disrupted - and others will be right there in the mix…

Albaby

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But VW is also copying the tech:

Some Legacy firms will get disrupted - and others will be right there in the mix…

I don’t know if the giga casting production method is a really big deal or just an internal production technique that will be common place over time.

The important point is that it is being introduced by a company that used to be a tiny nobody ~garage-ish startup and not by the titans of the industry. Ford seems to want to copy Tesla’s online ordering to stop dealership gouging over MSRP. Everyone wants to copy the OTA updates. The charging stations want to copy the Supercharger ease of use (just plug in and the car’s ID enables payment).

This is a bit similar to how Microsoft upset the computing industry back when IBM and the other mainframe and minicomputer companies ran things. And then they didn’t…as software in general and OS compatibility became important. Also how a company that never made a cell phone became the biggest company in the world.

Mike

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The important point is that it is being introduced by a company that used to be a tiny nobody ~garage-ish startup and not by the titans of the industry.

Why is that important? Didn’t all the incumbents “used to be” a tiny nobody ~garage-ish startup at one point before they became titans of the industry?

I mean, it’s kind of fun to still think of Tesla as a plucky startup. But at this point, it’s one of the most valuable companies on earth, with the fifth largest market cap in the U.S equity markets, about a hundred thousand employees across three continents, and the undisputed leader in its market segment with literally 19% of the entire global market share. The company’s nearly 20 years old now.

Albaby

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Also how a company that never made a cell phone became the biggest company in the world.

The ‘product’ is not the cellphone, it’s the ‘human interface,’ MacOS, iOS.

Elon Musk is saying that the cars are not the product, the giga factories are the product, the machines that make the machines. Those factories will be producing humanoid robots, mega chargers, Megapacks, solar roofs, PowerWalls, battery cells, and the AI needed to run them including software and hardware. Plus related services like virtual power plants…

Join Tesla & PG&E to Create a Virtual Power Plant

Powerwall can support your state while earning you compensation and maintaining your energy security. Help create the largest distributed battery in the world and keep California’s energy clean and reliable.

https://www.tesla.com/support/energy/powerwall/own/tesla-pge…

EVs are just the tip of powerBergs. :wink:

The Captain

Watch the stock split tonight!

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Why is that important? Didn’t all the incumbents “used to be” a tiny nobody ~garage-ish startup at one point before they became titans of the industry?

Sure they were. Most of them about a century ago…before their leaders were born.
And most of them seem to be acting as though their management teams graduated from the “Kodak school of technology transitions.”

Since they make all their money (currently) from “film and chemicals” they can’t get their heads around how to transition to “digital.”
GM built the EV1, the first modern era EV. (destroyed them in 2003, the year Tesla was started)
Kodak built the first digital SLR.

Mike

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Slightly tangential:

A few months ago I wandered into a NIO showroom in Oslo, Norway which had production floor models as well as a couple of “concept” cars. The fit/finish were as good as anything you would expect on a luxury machine and the novel designs of the concept cares indicated a future worth waiting for (including doing away with the steering wheel).

The business model they were promoting was a subscription/rental of the battery (a selection of sizes), with an obligation to swap it out for a fully charged battery upon request. While they didn’t seem cheap to me, it was explained that Norway’s high VAT tax biased what I was looking at and the base car sold for less than an equivalent ICE car.

Jeff

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Sure they were. Most of them about a century ago…before their leaders were born.
And most of them seem to be acting as though their management teams graduated from the “Kodak school of technology transitions.”

More like the Disney school of technology transitions - let Netflix demonstrate the viability of the new business segment, and then build out your own version. You don’t always have to move first.

Tesla’s absolutely dominant in the U.S. - but most of the international incumbents outside the U.S. are producing a fairly substantial amount of EV’s at this point. In Europe, for example - the market with the greatest degree of penetration - VW had 24% of the EV market last year. All of the other top 5 were Legacy firms as well:

https://cleantechnica.com/2022/01/30/29-of-cars-sold-in-euro…

The perception that incumbents aren’t making that transition is false. Certainly some are not making a lot of strides (Toyota and Honda, inexplicably) - but other incumbents are moving product pretty significantly.

Albaby

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More like the Disney school of technology transitions - let Netflix demonstrate the viability of the new business segment, and then build out your own version. You don’t always have to move first.

Every customer that Netflix signed up was a new customer.
With Disney+ this was probably mostly true (minus things like some cable cutters who dropped their ESPN that they didn’t really watch)

With legacy auto, each EV they sell is probably an ICE car they don’t sell.
It will be interesting when a legacy car company’s EV sells are additive to their sales after the COVID blips are over.
Mostly their EV sales are so small you can’t tell and/or supply chain issue and shutdowns have made comparisons difficult.

Mike

Every customer that Netflix signed up was a new customer.
With Disney+ this was probably mostly true (minus things like some cable cutters who dropped their ESPN that they didn’t really watch)

With legacy auto, each EV they sell is probably an ICE car they don’t sell.
It will be interesting when a legacy car company’s EV sells are additive to their sales after the COVID blips are over.
Mostly their EV sales are so small you can’t tell and/or supply chain issue and shutdowns have made comparisons difficult.

I don’t think the legacy manufacturers care if they sell EVs or ICEs. As long as they are selling cars, they don’t care what the power plant is. Tesla proved there is an EV market, but it took Tesla losing money for ten years (or whatever it was) before the market was established. The old school was willing to sit and watch Telsa take those losses before making a commitment.

So I think the analogy holds. Netflix took the risk and created the streaming movie market. Now that everyone knows it is a viable business model, the old school players are jumping in as well. And new school Netflix isn’t necessarily better than old school Disney or HBO. I regularly sign up and cancel streaming services all the time. The fact Netflix was the first mover doesn’t figure in. It is whoever has “Chernobyl” streaming at the moment.

It appears that Tesla is faster and more nimble than the legacy manufacturers, which is clearly good for Tesla, but I don’t think that implies that legacy manufacturers can’t learn or catch up.

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I don’t think the legacy manufacturers care if they sell EVs or ICEs. As long as they are selling cars, they don’t care what the power plant is.

They ignore profitability or the lack thereof? They ignore CapEx? They ignore cash flow?

The real issue is anchoring. ICE incumbents have high sunk costs and debt tied to their legacy business and the new EVs are quite different, there is a lot of disruption happening, it’s not just putting is an electric motor where the gas engine used to be. Who would have though that the FRUNK is so great a new feature? Or powering up your house during a blackout? Home charging. No more carbon monoxide poisoning! There is so much more than drivetrains.

The Captain

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With legacy auto, each EV they sell is probably an ICE car they don’t sell.

So what?

Every car with an automatic transmission they sold was a car with a manual transmission they didn’t sell. Every laser printer they sold was a dot-matrix printer they didn’t sell. Every flat screen TV they sold was a CRT TV they didn’t sell. Every CD they sold was a vinyl album they didn’t sell.
Every DVD they sold was a VHS tape they didn’t sell. Etc.

There are companies that don’t adapt to new tech (the Kodak example that always gets trotted out), but there are plenty of other instances where companies were perfectly happy to just shift their production to incorporate different technology into what is functionally the same product.

Again, legacy auto has shown every indication that they’re perfectly happy to sell EV’s. Last year, there were 2.2 million EV’s sold in Europe (dwarfing the U.S. market). Only 7% of them were sold by Tesla - the remaining 93% of them were sold by legacy automakers. 24% of them by the VW group alone. Slightly less than half of those were plug-ins, of course - but even if you look at BEV’s alone, some 80% of BEV’s in Europe were sold by incumbents. And those BEV’s made up about 11% of total vehicle sales in Europe.

There’s just no evidence that incumbents aren’t absolutely fine with making the switch between powertrains. They’re just doing it in Europe first, where gas prices are higher and trip lengths are shorter and subsidies are more generous. Which makes good business sense.

Albaby

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Who would have though that the FRUNK is so great a new feature?

Speaking of frunks, have you seen the frunk on the new F150?!? Wow.

I’ve never had the desire to own a truck but just seeing that frunk made me pause and think about it for a few seconds.

I agree with Business Insider that the frunk may be its best feature:

https://www.businessinsider.com/ford-f150-electric-lightning…

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Every car with an automatic transmission they sold was a car with a manual transmission they didn’t sell. Every laser printer they sold was a dot-matrix printer they didn’t sell. Every flat screen TV they sold was a CRT TV they didn’t sell. Every CD they sold was a vinyl album they didn’t sell. Every DVD they sold was a VHS tape they didn’t sell. Etc.

Every automatic transmission took the place of a manual transmission of a very-similar shape. The automakers had the option of deliberately engineering it to be exactly the same shape, which would be good because the space it went into was precisely engineered to fit that shape.

Every laser printer took the place of a dot-matrix printer of very-similar shape - and the space it went into typically wasn’t precisely engineered for that shape, and it was usually someone else’s job (not the printer manufacturer’s) to deal with any shape mismatches.

Every flat screen TV took the place of a CRT TV. Most of them went into spaces not precisely engineered to the shape of a CRT, and it was someone else’s problem to deal with the difference in shape.

Every CD they sold took the place of a vinyl album of very similar shape - and was smaller so would very-easily fit in the same place, and it was someone else’s job to deal with any issues.

Every DVD they sold took the place of a VHS tape - and it was someone else’s job to deal with the difference in shape.

In contrast, an EV powertrain is RADICALLY different in shape and disposition from an IC powertrain. The big lumps go in different places in the vehicle. Some big lumps simply don’t exist. One is typically cut into two or four. The way some controls actually work is significantly different (how the human interacts with them is a separate matter). And the automaker has to deal with all that.

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In contrast, an EV powertrain is RADICALLY different in shape and disposition from an IC powertrain. The big lumps go in different places in the vehicle. Some big lumps simply don’t exist. One is typically cut into two or four. The way some controls actually work is significantly different (how the human interacts with them is a separate matter). And the automaker has to deal with all that.

Of course. But there’s no reason to think they won’t or can’t. The basic product - the car - remains substantially the same.

Absolutely that will require radical changes to the process of manufacturing the vehicle. Absolutely it’s not like switching one part out for another. But the same is true of all the other products I mentioned. TV manufacturers had to completely redo all their production lines to switch from making CRT TV’s to flat screens. So too with folks making computer printers and monitors.

It certainly means switching out all of your manufacturing processes, maybe even redoing the entire factory. But in most instances, incumbent companies are perfectly fine doing that. If there’s a change - even a significant change - in the technology in the manufactured product, they’ll just start making the product with the new technology.

If there were any automobile companies that were structured like Kodak, where they both sold automobiles and sold the gasoline they ran on (and got most of their profits from gasoline) - then maybe? Maybe that type of company might have some more institutional resistance to swapping out the guts of their cars? But no such company exists - all of the Legacy Auto companies pretty much are in the business of selling cars, and they’ll be able to continue making and selling cars whether they’re ICE or EV. They’re more like Canon and Nikon (which made the switch from film to digital fairly easily, since they didn’t really have as much stake in the film side of things).

Again, as witnessed in Europe. As of right now, 21% of cars sold in Europe are EV’s - about 10% are PHEV and 11% are pure BEV. Almost every one of them is made by Legacy Auto - Tesla only has a 7% market share in those countries. Legacy Auto sells more EV’s in Europe than Tesla sells globally. To say nothing of the fact that most of the EV’s in China are made by Chinese Legacy automakers as well. All of them require significantly different manufacturing processes than a pure ICE, but Legacy Auto has made that switch in massive volumes. There’s just no evidence that Legacy Auto isn’t going to make the switch from ICE to EV’s.

Will there be some that get left behind, like Kodak did (but Canon and Nikon did not?) Sure, maybe. Perhaps even probably. It’s weird that Honda and Toyota, who made their bones with fuel efficiency, have been pretty late among legacy automakers to the EV game. And the U.S. is probably going to be one of the laggard markets for EV adoption, for obvious reasons. But generally, Legacy Auto writ large is a full, active, and enormous player already in the EV market. Which kind of belies the idea that they’re falling prey to the Innovator’s Dilemma problem.

Albaby

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EVs are dusrupting Legacy due to the Jack Welch mindset.

At first I was going to say not yet by saying go to an Autozone and see what is on the shelves. Clicked the Autozone website, surprisingly you can get battery replacements for hybrid cars and charging cables and a few other miscellaneous items like motor mounts, etc.

By far the DIY auto mechanic is still ICE. Much will depend on the “right to repair” in the future.

JLC

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I don’t think the legacy manufacturers care if they sell EVs or ICEs.

The might care if the ICE is being sold at a profit and the EV sold at a loss…

They might care if the ICE is being sold at a profit and the EV sold at a loss…

True. And that might explain why they proceeded cautiously into the market in the early days, rather than trying to flood it with very large volumes of vehicles right away. Maybe they might not be able to move enough EV’s at high enough prices to cover their costs. Maybe governmental subsidy programs might be less durable than they suspected. Maybe consumer demand, initially high relative to available product, might soften as consumers have experiences with these vehicles. Maybe the eventual cost curve for batteries/raw materials might make it difficult to sell EV’s at a profit. Etc. They go slow and see whether this turns out to be 3D TV instead of the iPhone.

But for the most part, incumbent automakers seem to have gotten past all that. A good EV product can sell quite well indeed - at a premium and with a wait list, at times (like the Lightning and most Tesla products). There’s no indication that two incumbents that pivoted hardest into EV’s - VW and BYD - are losing money on their EV’s.

Albaby

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